Shootout 02 - Real Marshall?

[dbw]

Therefore, utilizing the "logic" in your above argument, anyone who is "pro-t00b" can claim bias in ***their*** case.

Modeler tests don't have any bias whatsoever.  Only tube amp tests have bias, probably around -50 VDC.  ccasion14:

 

[tfarny]

Let the record show that in the only one of these tests to be done the right way, the orange test, Superliz could not identify a tube amp from a basic Line6 model.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Does everybody realize that as soon as an analog signal is recorded and converted to digital it is not any different than what modelers do? Only the initial sound source was analog. All these software packages (protools, cubase, etc) convert the recorded signal to digital and use algorithms to manipulate them. Think about it, when was the last time you looked in your PC? Did you see any analog tone or volume controls in there? All modelers do is load those same algorithms into the digital realm and reproduce what was recorded. Plain and simple. Of course some do it better than others.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

A couple of things I was thinking about, gain is gain is gain.  Voltage increase in the signal.  Clipping is the distortion introduced to the signal.  All the devices mentioned that clip, do so in a different fashion with regards to the wave, so that the audio signal you ultimately hear is different.  This can be watched with an oscilloscope and various characteristics tend to show up. 

The thing that tubes do for me that is cool is have a dynamic when my playing goes from soft to aggressive that the others don't seem to have or replicate.  Regardless if it is really high gain, or squeaky clean.  Could also be I am used to tubes and don't want to adapt.

Active pickups are a pain, in my opinion.  I get very frustrated with batteries and do not want to deal with them.  As far as how they sound?  The electronics do not behave like a coil and magnet.  Like other things, the strength of the signal causes dynamics here that the electronics do not replicate.  Could I discern it in a crowd, unlikely, but I have my opinion already.  And to be very honest about it, passive pickups do the job quite well.  Last thing is pickups are like tubes, there are hundreds of different types, and they all sound different.  I'll continue exploring the passive ones to satisfy my needs regarding my dislike for batteries in gear.

I have no doubt that modeling will continue to make strides, in the process we might figure out more about why we like certain noises.  That being said, I like my plain old tube amp.  If I was a working musician, I'd have a small modeling combo to be able to play anything at a moments notice.  I might not sound the best to me, less dynamics, but how many audience members can ever tell?  Next time someone asks about your amp at a show, lie through your teeth and tell them, "It is one of those new solid state Uberschalls, they have the creme colored knobs, look for 'em."  It is quite amusing.  I just do not think that the guitar to amp part of the equation is the same between the tube amp and the modeler.
Patrick

 

[Return of Guitlouie]

All of you need to stop using the word "prove" until your scientific method improves.  To my mind, nothing has been proven here, or, really in any of these tests.  Talk about an avalanche of variables.  Use what you like. 

 

[Mor Paul]

Silly me. I've been adjusting my guitar to sound good with my modelling amp.

As far as I'm concerned.. they have different purposes.

 

[AndyG]

Silly me. I've been adjusting my guitar to sound good with my modelling amp.

Well, that too is possible ....

http://www.fender.com/vgstrat/home.html

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Next time someone asks about your amp at a show, lie through your teeth and tell them, "It is one of those new solid state Uberschalls, they have the creme colored knobs, look for 'em."  It is quite amusing. 

Damn man, that hurt!! Could you at least sharpen that knife first!!!  :toothy11:

 

[Superlizard]

I never said it bypassed the preamp section, did I?

No, you didn't state exactly that, but that's exactly what your logic there says.

As far as "inferior gain" (S.S. stomp box gain is "inferior" to T00b preamp gain as you claim), can you show me a noticeable difference in tone between a S.S. stomp box (distortion/od) and the T00b preamp section of a t00b amp?  Furthermore, how exactly would you go about showing this?   :icon_scratch:

Probably the same as you, poorly.

The answer you should have typed is:  "I can't".  Because you can't - no one can go about showing this.

Therefore, you have no basis on which to claim that stomp box gain is "inferior" vs. T00b preamp gain.

Like I said, they work together... all part of the same happy signal chain.

There's simply no way in hell you'd be able to compare without bypassing the entire preamp section in lieu of a stomp.  :laughing11:

On a side note: Here's another thing I don't understand. Why people don't like active pups?

Because they sound like modeling amps:  fake and plastic.  It doesn't matter their composition or construction... it's
all about the tone they impart.

I can ask a very similar question:  "why do most people prefer t00b amps over solid state/modelers?"

The answer is because most people agree they sound better.

Modelers, solid state and active pickups will always take the back seat... for a reason:  their tone is inferior.

 

[Superlizard]

Therefore, utilizing the "logic" in your above argument, anyone who is "pro-t00b" can claim bias in ***their*** case.

Modeler tests don't have any bias whatsoever.  Only tube amp tests have bias, probably around -50 VDC.   ccasion14:

-50V DC???  

You know, I can respect someone who actually knows what they're talking about.  
I've come to learn that you do.   Your death cap adventure brought a tear to my eye...  :icon_thumright:

 

[Superlizard]

Does everybody realize that as soon as an analog signal is recorded and converted to digital it is not any different than what modelers do? Only the initial sound source was analog. All these software packages (protools, cubase, etc) convert the recorded signal to digital and use algorithms to manipulate them. Think about it, when was the last time you looked in your PC? Did you see any analog tone or volume controls in there? All modelers do is load those same algorithms into the digital realm and reproduce what was recorded. Plain and simple. Of course some do it better than others.

Here's the bottom-line question for you (and others like you who extoll the virtues of a given modeler):

If modelers are so friggin' awesome, why don't I see a modeler in your sig pic?

Oh, that's right - it's a t00b amp.  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Mor Paul]

Happy?  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Next time someone asks about your amp at a show, lie through your teeth and tell them, "It is one of those new solid state Uberschalls, they have the creme colored knobs, look for 'em."  It is quite amusing. 

Damn man, that hurt!! Could you at least sharpen that knife first!!!  :toothy11:

I apologize for singling you out, but your amp is rather distinctive.  It is also an awesome amp.  But, the fact remains, most of the audience will never know.  A friend of mine held a straight face talking about his solid state Randall, calling it a tube amp the entire time with an audience member at a break.  The audience member was gushing about tubes, how he could tell that the amp was a tube amp by the distinctive sound, and to me it was one of the funniest things I have ever seen.  
Patrick

 

[Superlizard]

Let the record show that in the only one of these tests to be done the right way, the orange test, Superliz could not identify a tube amp from a basic Line6 model.

And that proves what, exactly?

If anything, it proves that if Joe Guitarist wanted a modeler that could do an Orange amp set to
light clipping, that's the one he should get, because it comes damn close.

However, the Orange dude never goosed the amp, never put a stomp in front of it, etc etc.

So, the problem is, not every amp is an Orange, not every player wants the Orange sound and not every player wants to set the gain to just light clipping.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Once again, I never said it bypassed the pre amp section. Don't know where you're getting that from. My comment was on where and what the gain was coming from. Marshall tried the solid state diode gain and it sucked. Still can't figure out why you, the t00b snob, is disagreeing with me. I'm reinforcing the "tube gain is better" argument which is in your favor.  :icon_scratch:

Thanks for clearing the rest of that up for me also, don't know what I would do without to you to keep it straight for me.  Thanks. :doh:

I personally think you are scared to do an "apples to apples" test for fear of the outcome (Orange amp test). You can say you're not scared to do it. But your track record here and with your other tone test proves otherwise.

So this is my farewell to all of your "tone test", past, present or future. I won't discuss it anymore because you are dead set in your opinion of modelers and keep skewing the test on purpose. As stated earlier, I never said modelers were better than tube amps. I said most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And as we've seen that includes you too.


My suggestion, try a different modeler for shits & giggles before you keep talking the same game. There are much better units out there than what you are using. Try a new POD, AxeFX, Amp Farm, etc. Your current train of thought on this would be the same as if I drove a piece of shit Yugo and said all cars are shit because mine is.  :icon_thumright: BTW, I don't drive a Yugo.  :icon_jokercolor:

And for those a little on the slow side, I never said modelers were better than tube amps. I said most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Next time someone asks about your amp at a show, lie through your teeth and tell them, "It is one of those new solid state Uberschalls, they have the creme colored knobs, look for 'em."  It is quite amusing. 

Damn man, that hurt!! Could you at least sharpen that knife first!!!  :toothy11:

I apologize for singling you out, but your amp is rather distinctive.  It is also an awesome amp.  But, the fact remains, most of the audience will never know.  A friend of mine held a straight face talking about his solid state Randall, calling it a tube amp the entire time with an audience member at a break.  The audience member was gushing about tubes, how he could tell that the amp was a tube amp by the distinctive sound, and to me it was one of the funniest things I have ever seen.  
Patrick

It's all good, I knew what you meant.  ccasion14:

 

[Superlizard]

Marshall tried the solid state diode gain and it sucked.

I disagree - I owned a 2210 back in the day and it was appropriately "hairy".  Not as good as the ol' non-master volume plexi type circuits, mind you.

Still can't figure out why you, the t00b snob, is disagreeing with me. I'm reinforcing the "tube gain is better" argument which is in your favor.  :icon_scratch:

Because as I've explained, you're incorrect.

There's a difference between preamp t00b gain and poweramp t00b gain.  You know that little Master Volume knob you have on your Bogner?  Try turning that
down to "1" while cranking the Preamp gain knob (whatever it's called on your particular amp) to "10".  Hear that thin, buzzy tone?  That's called "too much preamp gain".

I personally think you are scared to do an "apples to apples" test for fear of the outcome (Orange amp test). You can say you're not scared to do it. But your track record here and with your other tone test proves otherwise.

I've mentioned before, quite clearly, in a previous thread (and to yourself of all people) that I don't have an "apples to apples" setup.

Besides that, you and some others here need to learn how think "outside the box" - Apples to apples isn't the *only* viable test.

Why?  Because a t00b amp in general can do things that a modeler cannot.  It doesn't matter the brand of the t00b amp nor the brand the modeler is trying to emulate.

If I can take a random bunch of amps (with a modeler snuck in there) and ask people which is the modeler, and the majority can pick it... like I've said - that says a lot.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

And that proves what, exactly?

If anything, it proves that if Joe Guitarist wanted a modeler that could do an Orange amp set to
light clipping, that's the one he should get, because it comes damn close.

However, the Orange dude never goosed the amp, never put a stomp in front of it, etc etc.

So, the problem is, not every amp is an Orange, not every player wants the Orange sound and not every player wants to set the gain to just light clipping.

I love it.  Even when you're wrong, you're right.

 

[GoDrex]

I love it.  Even when you're wrong, you're right.

My mom used to say to me jokingly, "I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong." I think SL lives by that. :laughing7:

 

[yyz2112]

I really believe what all of this boils down to (foe some of you) is the question of what sounds "right". The topic has been skirted by and flirted with, and the OP very nearly said it in so many words, that tubes produce the "right" sound.
Guitar players tend to be a close-minded bunch in general, but it's good to see some extolling the virtues of-alternative, modern, fake, insert what you'd like-gear that isn't what their grandfather played through.
I, like most here, have played gigs thorugh tube amps, ss amps and modelers, and combinations thereof, always looking for a better sound.  One of my favorite rigs was a J Station through a Boogie 50/50. Would you want a modeler to sound like a Marshall or Fender, or are you trying to craft unique tones? If you are attempting the former, forget it, you'll never be happy. If the latter is your goal, thern try everything, from modeler to op-amp based 1/2 watt amps, to tube amps, whatever.
In my opinion, there is too much reverence paid to old gear and not enough concentration on moving on and being different.