Shootout 02 - Real Marshall?

[dbw]

Obviously some people get workable sound from their modelers.  For whatever reason you are not one of those people... neither am I so keep on rockin' that Marshall.  :guitaristgif:

 

[tfarny]

Moral of this thread - SuperLizard has some bad modelling gear and / or doesn't know how to tweak it properly. Same as me, I guess.  ccasion14:
I'll keep rocking my tubes for the time being as well, but I may at some point give the Vox stuff a more thorough checking-out.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Moral of this thread - SuperLizard has some bad modeling gear and / or doesn't know how to tweak it properly.

:icon_thumright:

What I find really amusing is that we have to set all of the knobs exactly the same to compare them. Put two real plexi amps of the same model side by side and see if they sound exactly the same with matched settings, they don't. Because Marshall was notorious for using loose tolerance components or other values depending on what was available. This is why some of them have the "magic" and some sound like crap. Also take into account component values "drifting" out of spec over time, tube wear, tube design, manufacturer, how the amp is biased, etc and you will two different sounding amps.

Did the modeler have a bass knob?

 

[Superlizard]

Actually, the moral of this thread is:

Don't waste your $$$ on Guitar Rig (I got it free).  :icon_biggrin:

Which is a shame, really... because Native Instruments does some awesome stuff like the "B4" (Hammond B3 Organ emu).

 

[Superlizard]

Put two real plexi amps of the same model side by side and see if they sound exactly the same with matched settings, they don't.

This is true of *any* two of the same model amps, however, assuming they're both in proper working order and they have decent-brand t00bs, one will not sound like complete ass compared to the other - which is the case here.

Guitar Rig 3 = EPIC FAIL for classic rawk tone.

For uber-hi gain, uber-compressed, non-dynamic tone (which these modelers seem to excel at), I'll bet it'd be right up your alley.  :icon_thumright:

 

[GoDrex]

just for the sake of interest...

 

[Superlizard]

just for the sake of interest...

Due to the extreme difference in volume 'tween the modeler (which can't handle low output pickups - even with the auto-vol adjusts) and real amp I normalized
all clips to -1 dB (in Adobe Audition, no less).

So, if you're insinuating that (with clip 2) *****hitting a peak amp. of 0dB***** with a potential of clipped samples is "fouling" the tone, be assured
you can run the same analysis on my other test (featuring modeler, JTM45 and '67 Deluxe) and post the results here.

In other words, the modeler tone is ass regardless.

But to assuage your doubts (and prove once again), I'll do *another* quick pair of "dirt" clips (one GR3 "Plex", one real JTM45 - with Crunch Box), in a
separate thread... just for you.   :icon_thumright:

 

[dmraco]

this is a great thread...especially since I am playing with the modeling on my boss gt 10.  I get some great sounds coming from my Fender hot rod with it.  So much that I do not think I need to get a new head,,,just an extension cab for alittle more thud! 

Nice work lizard.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

For uber-hi gain, uber-compressed, non-dynamic tone (which these modelers seem to excel at), I'll bet it'd be right up your alley.   :icon_thumright:

Why does it have to turn into a personal issue? Because I think your "tone test" is flawed, once again? And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks it either.
And BTW, never once have I said a modeler was the better choice over tube amps. My point in any of this is that a good modeler can sound just as good as a tube amp to the point where most people wouldn't know the difference. You're the one who keeps trying to prove they are "crap".  :doh:

Hum, let's bait them with a warmer sounding modeler and make the vintage spec t00b amp sound hi-fi. Good way to do a comparison as most modelers are clearer sounding and have broader sweeps in tone with their eq vs. the limits of a real vintage spec'ed tube amp.  :icon_thumright:
If you really wanted to do a tube vs. modeler comparison, you would go guitar straight to amp/modeler and you would eq them the same by ear (or spectrum analysis) instead of knob positions so that we could hear the "subtle" differences you keep referencing that make a tube amp preferable over the modeler.

You seem to forget that when I play live, I use a tube amp head as I have several to choose from. Hey and guess what, the music I play calls for a hi-gainer 75% of the time, so that's what I bring. And using a low gain amp with a boost/dist/overdrive pedal only adds sterile solid state gain instead of relying on the tubes. The only difference between a tube hi gain amp and a boosted tube low gain amp is that you are using "out board" gain instead of internal gain, and in this case inferior gain because it's not tube generated gain. My 20 space rack has the Mesa TriAxis and 2:90 power amp because I know tube guitar equipment sounds better. And I'm not going to even get into the discussion with you about the TriAxis and whether or not it's using the tubes for it's sound, because it does. If I bring the Pod XTLive out it's for those open jam nights at a club where 5 minute set-up times are much better than 30 minute set-up times. And oddly enough, I get just as many compliments from other guitar players and sound men on the POD as I do on my Uberschall, SLO, Mesa, Rivera, etc. Go figure.  ccasion14: In a live situation in a club with the pa pumping you wouldn't hear any of the subtle qualities the tubes offer. They would get lost in the mix or buried in the room's natural acoustics.

You already know the sound quality of "your" modeler is sub-par. Maybe you should beg/borrow/steal a better one for some comparison. just a thought.  ccasion14:

And don't take anything I say personally, this is an open discussion on the topic and how I feel about it personally. Others will agree or disagree, but that's the beauty of it.

If we met, I would buy you a beer while you tried to convince me that all modelers are crap.  ccasion14: Although you would be wrong.  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

mostly +1

The details I'm lost on, but it is a flawed test because the outcome is determined (not predicted) before the test is even done.  It's biased because the person running the test doesn't want a modeller to sound good, so it doesn't.

 

[Superlizard]

mostly +1

The details I'm lost on, but it is a flawed test because the outcome is determined (not predicted) before the test is even done.  It's biased because the person running the test doesn't want a modeller to sound good, so it doesn't.

-1

Specious logic at best - claim bias all you want, however, let's not conveniently forget the fact that Mayfly, DBU and that other
dude (the Orange amp test) did their own tests in an attempt to supposedly show how close a modeler gets to a t00b amp.

Therefore, utilizing the "logic" in your above argument, anyone who is "pro-t00b" can claim bias in ***their*** case.

As well, *their* outcomes were pre-determined "I'm gonna make clips that show that a modeler can sound just as good as a t00b amp".

In reality, none of this matters... the clips tell all; bias or not - pre-determination or not.

 

[Superlizard]

For uber-hi gain, uber-compressed, non-dynamic tone (which these modelers seem to excel at), I'll bet it'd be right up your alley.   :icon_thumright:

Why does it have to turn into a personal issue?

Why do you take my above statement personally?  I've heard some of your clips, I know some of the pro players' tone you like (Satriani, Vai, etc) and I know that's the kind of tone you use.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Yes, but as I stated, I really didn't do a test for comparison, it was a joke set-up as it was all POD.  :icon_thumright:

 

[Superlizard]

Gary - as well, I will also post (in this thread) the non-normalized dirty clips tonight.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

For uber-hi gain, uber-compressed, non-dynamic tone (which these modelers seem to excel at), I'll bet it'd be right up your alley.   :icon_thumright:

Why does it have to turn into a personal issue?

Why do you take my above statement personally?  I've heard some of your clips, I know some of the pro players' tone you like (Satriani, Vai, etc) and I know that's the kind of tone you use.

OK, I accept your apology.  ccasion14:




j/k  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

mostly +1

The details I'm lost on, but it is a flawed test because the outcome is determined (not predicted) before the test is even done.  It's biased because the person running the test doesn't want a modeller to sound good, so it doesn't.

-1

Specious logic at best - claim bias all you want, however, let's not conveniently forget the fact that Mayfly, DBU and that other
dude (the Orange amp test) did their own tests in an attempt to supposedly show how close a modeler gets to a t00b amp.

Therefore, utilizing the "logic" in your above argument, anyone who is "pro-t00b" can claim bias in ***their*** case.

As well, *their* outcomes were pre-determined "I'm gonna make clips that show that a modeler can sound just as good as a t00b amp".

In reality, none of this matters... the clips tell all; bias or not - pre-determination or not.

In the other tests, they were really close.  One was an even split.  Proving a modeller can sound like what it's modeled after, atleast to half of the people.

 

[Superlizard]

And using a low gain amp with a boost/dist/overdrive pedal only adds sterile solid state gain instead of relying on the tubes. The only difference between a tube hi gain amp and a boosted tube low gain amp is that you are using "out board" gain instead of internal gain, and in this case inferior gain because it's not tube generated gain.

Slapping a stomp box in front of an amp introduces a boosted signal to push the t00b amp front end (preamp).  The fact is, a stomp box works *directly with*
the preamp section of a t00b amp; it doesn't bypass the preamp section.

As far as "inferior gain" (S.S. stomp box gain is "inferior" to T00b preamp gain as you claim), can you show me a noticeable difference in tone between a S.S. stomp box (distortion/od) and the T00b preamp section of a t00b amp?  Furthermore, how exactly would you go about showing this?   :icon_scratch:

 

[Superlizard]

In the other tests, they were really close.  One was an even split.  Proving a modeller can sound like what it's modeled after, atleast to half of the people.

Mayfly's wasn't close... DBU's was a joke.  Furthermore, one of Mayfly's clips was clipping.

The only one who was close was the Orange amp dude.

However, showing how close one amp can get to another is not the *only* test one can use.

For example, my first test - I posted 3 different amps, and I asked the simple question:  "which is the modeler".

And as I recall, over 60% picked the modeler correctly.

Thus proving that the majority can tell a fake amp from a real one... that says plenty.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

And using a low gain amp with a boost/dist/overdrive pedal only adds sterile solid state gain instead of relying on the tubes. The only difference between a tube hi gain amp and a boosted tube low gain amp is that you are using "out board" gain instead of internal gain, and in this case inferior gain because it's not tube generated gain.

Slapping a stomp box in front of an amp introduces a boosted signal to push the t00b amp front end (preamp).  The fact is, a stomp box works *directly with*
the preamp section of a t00b amp; it doesn't bypass the preamp section.

I never said it bypassed the preamp section, did I? But putting a solid state device in front of a vintage based tube amp changes the impedance load at the input stage of the amp where the modeler won't care. I'm sure you know that already, right? Secondly, most, if not all boost/overdrive/dist pedals color the tone. Most are not completely transparent. And once again, you hear the solid state clipping vs. tubes overdriving.

As far as "inferior gain" (S.S. stomp box gain is "inferior" to T00b preamp gain as you claim), can you show me a noticeable difference in tone between a S.S. stomp box (distortion/od) and the T00b preamp section of a t00b amp?  Furthermore, how exactly would you go about showing this?   :icon_scratch:

Probably the same as you, poorly.

It is widely know that most of these types of pedals shave off some of the tonal range to make them smoother sounding and more focused.

You do realize that you are now defending solid state as the same level of quality?  :icon_jokercolor:

On a side note: Here's another thing I don't understand. Why people don't like active pups? They claim it's because it sounds artificial, not natural. But in reality, as soon as you plug into a "buffered" pedal, which most are and people do, you have the same thing with a normal pup. An EMG is nothing more than a normal pup with an on-board buffered preamp. Only with a vintage style fuzz pedal does it make a difference, other than that, by the time it gets to the amp's input, it's been buffered and converted several times over.

 

[AndyG]

I'm gonna chime in with my 2 cents ...

This seems to be like the old Coke vs Pepsi challenge.  The blind taste test to see which one you like better ... as opposed to trying to figure out which is which, because, at the end of the day, the modelled sound was badly recorded/clipped/whatever.  If care had been taken to produce a useable sound, perhaps the results would have been different.  Or perhaps not.  It must first assume that the tone being recorded is the tone you want.  And what if you do not like the tone from a Marshall Plexi in the first place?  The one REALLY IMPORTANT thing that these little challanges do not take into account is taste.  

IF you like the recorded or live sounds you get from whatever box is amplifying the signal from your guitar, who gives a rat's a$$ whether it comes from tubes, chips, diodes, or algorithms?  It has been mentioned several times that because a crunch box was used, the test is flawed (or words to that effect).  But it also adds another variable to the equation ... What if an old tube screamer pedal was used?  How 'bout one of the new generation?  A Boss Heavy Metal pedal perhaps?

Once again,  I am going to preach the very simple mantra that if the end user, the guitar player, likes the tone (s)he gets from whatever box they happen to be using, more power to them.  I am certainly not going to waste my time trying to "prove" anything, because you cannot prove or disprove what a player likes .... and judging from the myriad of styles of music that are out there, and the guitar tones associated with them, alot of players like alot of different tones.

Say what you will about the tone of modellers ... I really don't care anymore.  This particular debate is no longer about proving who is right ... because nobody is, and everybody is.  I like what I get, and that's all that is important.