Which way does Warmoth cut the radius

[Patrick B]

Hello guitarlings

I've got a question about how Warmoth cuts its fingerboard radius. My question is best summed up with this picture:

If solid line C represents a given low radius neck and dotted lines A & B represent a given large radius neck, does Warmoth cut the fingerboards like line A or like line B?

Asked in another way, for any two given radius sizes, is the center of the fingerboard held constant while the sides vary, or are the sides held constant while the center thickness varies?

The reason I ask: if Warmoth cuts like lines A and C (as opposed to B and C), then small radius necks will definitely make the shoulders feel thinner.

Forgive the fixation on a small detail. I've just been going around measuring different necks trying to figure out why I like the ones I like.

 

[stratamania]

Welcome to the forum.

Bear in mind I do not work for Warmoth, but I would say line A and the centre being the constant. It would have to be the opposite way if you were flattening something that had already been radiused.

If you have not seen it there is more information here.

https://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/Radius.aspx

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Here's a pic of Boon using the Compound Radius sanding jig, made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/230_Compound.jpg

This is Boon using the fixed Radius Sanding jig, also made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/220_Adjustradius.jpg

I have seen other "router" based versions in home shops as follows:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/fingerboard-radius-jig-for-router.655298/

 

[Patrick B]

Welcome to the forum.

Bear in mind I do not work for Warmoth, but I would say line A and the centre being the constant. It would have to be the opposite way if you were flattening something that had already been radiused.

If you have not seen it there is more information here.

https://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/Radius.aspx

Hmm, I would tend to go with that as my guess too. One piece of evidence in favor of this is that Warmoth advertises specific thicknesses of neck profiles at 1st and 12th frets, without mention of neck radius. This would imply that neck radius has no effect on center thickness, and therefore it's the sides of the fingerboard that vary.

Someone with a compound radius neck can confirm or deny this, actually. Do the sides of the fingerboard wood on compound radius necks will get thinner as you go up the neck? (It would only be a small variation, less than 1 mm I'm guessing)

Here's a pic of Boon using the Compound Radius sanding jig, made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/230_Compound.jpg

This is Boon using the fixed Radius Sanding jig, also made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/220_Adjustradius.jpg

I have seen other "router" based versions in home shops as follows:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/fingerboard-radius-jig-for-router.655298/

Very cool pictures. Coming up with homemade jigs for making guitar parts sounds fun.

I guess the answer to my question resides in how they make use of that jig.

It would make the most sense to cut pretty much all the fingerboards to the same thickness, glue them to the shaft, put them in the sanding jig at the right length and flush against the sanding belt, then rotate them forward and back and forth. Center thickness staying constant across the radii I guess. Trying to hold the sides constant seems like a lot more work.

 

[stratamania]

I don't see any appreciable difference one way or the other on the compound necks I have. But all of the ones I have I have rolled the edges of.

I would say overall you may be concerning yourself over something none significant in terms of anything that you would notice playing wise in either case. Warmoth have sold countless compound necks to customers I am sure you would find them very playable.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

It would make the most sense to cut pretty much all the fingerboards to the same thickness, glue them to the shaft, put them in the sanding jig at the right length and flush against the sanding belt, then rotate them forward and back and forth. Center thickness staying constant across the radii I guess. [/quote]

This is my experience of how it was done when I worked there, more material is removed from the out edges of the fingerboard, and the center has the least amount of material removed.
However, with my experience being mentioned, take into consideration that it has been 11 years since I worked there and I would defer to Aaron to confirm current methods.

 

[Fat Pete]

...Someone with a compound radius neck can confirm or deny this, actually. Do the sides of the fingerboard wood on compound radius necks will get thinner as you go up the neck? (It would only be a small variation, less than 1 mm I'm guessing)...

Interesting... Something about this assumption didn't ring true to me, so I drew it out. You can see that it would be true if fingerboards were straight, but on a tapered board the compound radius actually keeps the edge thickness almost the same at the ends (and I'll assume constantly), where a straight radius would actually result in thinner edges at the wider end of the 'board.

The drawing is at scale for a 1 11/16" nut width and 2 3/16" heel width with a 10 - 16" compound radius. The magnified section below shows the relative differences at the edge - the compound varies by 0.004" (0.091 mm) and the straight 10" by 0.049" (1.248 mm).

This also assumes that the board is the same thickness along its length.

 

[Patrick B]

...Someone with a compound radius neck can confirm or deny this, actually. Do the sides of the fingerboard wood on compound radius necks will get thinner as you go up the neck? (It would only be a small variation, less than 1 mm I'm guessing)...

Interesting... Something about this assumption didn't ring true to me, so I drew it out. You can see that it would be true if fingerboards were straight, but on a tapered board the compound radius actually keeps the edge thickness almost the same at the ends (and I'll assume constantly), where a straight radius would actually result in thinner edges at the wider end of the 'board.

The drawing is at scale for a 1 11/16" nut width and 2 3/16" heel width with a 10 - 16" compound radius. The magnified section below shows the relative differences at the edge - the compound varies by 0.004" (0.091 mm) and the straight 10" by 0.049" (1.248 mm).

This also assumes that the board is the same thickness along its length.

Ah the taper. You're right. And I just looked at my guitar's cylindrical radius and sure enough the fingerboard is about 1 mm thinner where it bolts onto the strat body.

In any case, it looks like for any given manufacturer, their smaller radius necks will tend to have thinner shoulder areas than their larger radius necks. Maybe by 1 mm or so.

I play a lot of baseball-grip finger style, and this area of the neck has been a fixation for me lately. Thanks everyone.

 

[Logrinn]

I will agree with Pete and was about to say something similar, but not based on drawings, but based on a set of radius gauge I recently got:

Out of curiosity I checked one of my Warmoth necks and it does indeed have a radius of 10" at the first fret and 16" at the last fret. But when I took the 16" gauge and held it at the first fret and the 10" gauge at the last fret (just for fun and curiosity), the difference is so small that I was actually surprised how little difference there is between 10" and 16" in radius.
So to answer you question I was about to say that your drawing was very exaggerated and the reality is not a difference of 1mm as you guessed but perhaps 0.1mm or less (which Pete also have shown).
And like Stratamania said, you will probaly not notice this IRL.
I would imagine that rolling the fretboard edges will make a much greater difference in feel of the shoulders.

 

[Patrick B]

I will agree with Pete and was about to say something similar, but not based on drawings, but based on a set of radius gauge I recently got:

Out of curiosity I checked one of my Warmoth necks and it does indeed have a radius of 10" at the first fret and 16" at the last fret. But when I took the 16" gauge and held it at the first fret and the 10" gauge at the last fret (just for fun and curiosity), the difference is so small that I was actually surprised how little difference there is between 10" and 16" in radius.
So to answer you question I was about to say that your drawing was very exaggerated and the reality is not a difference of 1mm as you guessed but perhaps 0.1mm or less (which Pete also have shown).
And like Stratamania said, you will probaly not notice this IRL.
I would imagine that rolling the fretboard edges will make a much greater difference in feel of the shoulders.

Fretboard rolling. Been a while since I thought about that.

Your experience reminds me of a video I watched recently that downplayed the significance of compound radii, specifically this bit where he puts a 15 in. gauge on the 10 in. radius part of the neck:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/HB-BwUl6W7c?t=555[/youtube]

You're right it's not much. In fact I just did some back-of-the-napkin trigonometry and if you compare a 9 in. radius fretboard to a 16 in... the 9 in. is about 0.44 mm thinner on each side compared to a 16 in on a 1 11/16 nut width. And with a 7.25 in. radius fretboard, it has about a 0.68 mm less fretboard width on both sides compared to a 16 in on that same nut width. (If my decades old math skills are right.)

Nobody is trying to decide between a 16in radius and a 7.25 radius I guess. But maybe it's just one more factor, among 5 or so other factors, that explains why my hands like some necks and not others.

 

[Logrinn]

Another factor is frets.
A lower fret will make the neck feel different than a higher fret (obviously).
Just another thing to consider, I’m afraid. 

 

[stratamania]

I would not bother with the remarks in the Texas Toast video. It is a video to create a debate around an area where there really is none. Whereas some of his videos are okay not all of them or his remarks are 100% accurate or fully researched.

 

[jay4321]

While the differences might seem tiny when eyeballing with radius gauges, those little things add up fast on guitars. An 8th of a truss rod turn here, some slightly out of radius saddles there, a couple frets a few thousandths high, nut slots cut a few thousands too wide, pickups just slight too close...you get the idea.

I think the difference between 10” and 16” radius is quite a bit, and would expect any experienced guitarist to notice the difference in their hands immediately. Of course you can still adjust and play for the most part but where possible I’d suggest matching your saddle radius to the bridge, thinking about the pickup stagger and so on.

 

[aarontunes]

Here's a pic of Boon using the Compound Radius sanding jig, made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/230_Compound.jpg

This is Boon using the fixed Radius Sanding jig, also made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/220_Adjustradius.jpg

I have seen other "router" based versions in home shops as follows:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/fingerboard-radius-jig-for-router.655298/

FYI, Warmoth no longer radiuses fingerboard this way. It's all done on CNC now.

 

[mayfly]

Here's a pic of Boon using the Compound Radius sanding jig, made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/230_Compound.jpg

This is Boon using the fixed Radius Sanding jig, also made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/220_Adjustradius.jpg

I have seen other "router" based versions in home shops as follows:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/fingerboard-radius-jig-for-router.655298/

FYI, Warmoth no longer radiuses fingerboard this way. It's all done on CNC now.

aaaand that's why they can offer more radiuses!  :icon_thumright:

 

[Patrick B]

Here's a pic of Boon using the Compound Radius sanding jig, made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/230_Compound.jpg

This is Boon using the fixed Radius Sanding jig, also made in house.
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/images/large/220_Adjustradius.jpg

I have seen other "router" based versions in home shops as follows:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/fingerboard-radius-jig-for-router.655298/

FYI, Warmoth no longer radiuses fingerboard this way. It's all done on CNC now.

Up-to-date photo of Warmoth's radius cutting machine:

In other news, I read in a different thread that the reason Warmoth doesn't offer 7.25 in. radius necks on the modern construction is that the cutting begins to encroach on the side dot inlays. That implies that sides of the fingerboards are indeed what varies, not the center.

Kind of obvious the more I think about it

 

[aarontunes]

Up-to-date photo of Warmoth's radius cutting machine:

And it absolutely will not stop radiusing fretboards, ever, until you are dead.

 

[Rick]

One thing's for sure ... that CNC machine is relentless and could probably run for governor.

 

[BroccoliRob]

yo correct me if I be #off-base, but if the Big W did radiuses (radii) any way other than Line A wouldn't the thickness of the neck come out wrong?

 

[Patrick B]

yo correct me if I be #off-base, but if the Big W did radiuses (radii) any way other than Line A wouldn't the thickness of the neck come out wrong?

Yea, another reason the answer to my question is clear cut