DangerousR6
Mythical Status
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I say #1 is the modeler.... :guitarplayer2:
Death by Uberschall said:Here's the deal with your test. Adding a solid state overdrive/distortion pedal puts the hard sterile clipping fizz/buzz into the signal that tubes don't. So by adding it in, you make the tube amps have the same quality of a cheap modeler. You've got to let the tube amps speak for themselves.
Death by Uberschall said:Hey, who put the guy who hates modelers in charge of recording comparisons anyway? :icon_jokercolor: :laughing7:
Superlizard said:Death by Uberschall said:Here's the deal with your test. Adding a solid state overdrive/distortion pedal puts the hard sterile clipping fizz/buzz into the signal that tubes don't. So by adding it in, you make the tube amps have the same quality of a cheap modeler. You've got to let the tube amps speak for themselves.
I only agree with the above ("same quality") *if* you lay tons of clipping on the tone from a stomp (crank ths dist/gain on the stomp).
Not only that, how do you suppose your Bogner (for ex.) gets all its gain? It ain't just from t00bs... there's certainly some
sort of diode clipping (my old Marshall 2210 100watt head had this) or other clipping-generating circuit in there... it's just
like having a built-in stompbox.
Death by Uberschall said:Hey, who put the guy who hates modelers in charge of recording comparisons anyway? :icon_jokercolor: :laughing7:
Hey you're more than welcome to do your own tests... just make sure if you do, that you don't cheat by claiming one amp is a real "x" when both clips are your POD... like you did with your first one. :icon_biggrin:
Death by Uberschall said:Hate to tell you, but there is no diode clipping in a Bogner, it's all t00b.
Superlizard said:Death by Uberschall said:Hate to tell you, but there is no diode clipping in a Bogner, it's all t00b.
Out of curiousity (call me a skeptic with anything most say here), what makes you so sure there's
no sort of S.S. clipping circuit (diode or other) in there?
Have you confirmed this by looking at the schematic/opening up the amp?
Or are you just making assumptions?
I haven't looked at any Bogner schemas (for obvious reasons), but it appears from google searching that finding a schematic for the uberschall is difficult.
(go ahead and try google search)
The other thing in all this, even if you're introducing an extra preamp t00b stage(s) inside the amp (which is possible with your Bogner)... you cannot
say that there's enough of a difference tone-wise between 1) extra preamp t00b stages ... and 2) a stomp box. They both achieve the same desired goal.
Hell, some stomp boxes even have a preamp t00b in them - not that it matters vs. solid state pedal design.
Or to simply things, you're not going to hear any "t00b difference" in an extra t00b stage or t00b-loaded stomp versus a S.S. stomp. This fallacy was
perpetuated repeatedly in the awful rack days of the late 80's when guitar preamp rack equip manufacturers touted their products as having "an actual t00b"
in their stuff... there is no audible difference - pure bullshitee.
Let's take a look at the t00b layout (best I can find so far) from the official site:
========================================================
V1: Input tube for both channels, 12ax7
V2: High gain channel, 12ax7
V3: High gain channel, 12ax7
V4: Clean channel 2nd stage, 12ax7
V5: Loop, 12ax7
V6: Phase Inverter, 12ax7
V7 through V10: Power Tubes, EL34
========================================
The amp appears to be a 2 channel amp - clean and dirty. V1 takes care of that.
The High Gain channel shows as having two more 12AX7s in its circuit. V6 shows as the phase inverter.
Therefore, there *must* be an "extra" 12AX7 in the High Gain channel circuit ("extra" as compared to typical old-school Marshall circuit for ex... 3 12AX7s total).
(in other words, the High Gain channel circuit contains a total of 4 12AX7s)
Even so, with an "extra" t00b gain stage, that ain't enough for mondo-massive modern day nu-metal tone. Back in the 80's they would (gasp) cut up
old Marshalls and add an extra 12AX7 to get that "Eddie tone" (thanks, Ed... ). Not even close...
So, until I see an official schematic for one, I refuse to believe your claims that there's no clipping circuit. I have no reason to, because
it's nigh impossible to find a schematic for one, and as well you have no track record here of t00b amp building, modding or troubleshooting,
so I highly doubt you've been inside your Uberschall, or any t00b amp for that matter. I say you're making an assumption... perhaps parroted
from some other BBS where they were talking about Bogners or what have you.
You're more than welcome to prove otherwise, of course. I'm just a skeptical bastard is all. :icon_scratch:
Death by Uberschall said:Two things:
#1. I don't swing that way, so stop hitting up on me and singling me out, I'm not taking your home with me, get over it. I don't play for the "Packers".
#2. I really don't give a shiteeeee what you think you know about me, my amp/s, or life in general. So let's just get that straight early on, don't want you to get confused over that.
I do my own amp servicing and modding, pedal mods and pedal building. I'm sure that I along with many others here have more than enough ability to swap out a few resistors and caps to change an amps tone and feel.
I agree, adding another tube pre-amp stage doesn't change the tone, but in cascading pre-amp designs it does add gain. And it uses tube dynamics instead of a sterile transistor or LEDs. So, there is a different outcome sound wise. Your inability to recognize that tells me and others that you really don't have a clue. Hell, some amps don't even take advantage of or use both sides of all the 12ax7 tubes in their pre-amp.
Instead of attacking me personally, how about you put together a real world guitar into amp and guitar into modeler comparison and stop with all the "Flavors of Love" b.s. Or maybe you need to make them so different as to confuse people, that way you can claim you are right and the rest of the guitar playing community is wrong. Hey while your at, post five different amps with completely different eq settings and one modeler clip to sway the odds more in your favor while your at it. :icon_thumright:
That's awesome, you were able to find the tube layout for my Uberschall. Nice detective work. Wow, I never would have thought that YOU would be able to go to the Bogner website and demonstrate the ability to copy and paste it here, And on top of that, you figured out it's a two channel amp all by yourself!! I'm truly impressed. :icon_thumright:
Just because Marshall had to rely on clipping diodes to make their amps sound modern and distort doesn't mean world class builders like Bogner, Soldano, Rivera, etc. had to or did. I also own a SLO, and SLO schematics are all over the 'net. Grab you one and go to town with your bad ass Sherlock Holmes self.
I don't know why I'm even wasting my time discussing anything with a guy who can barely pull off Thin Lizzy licks through a nice Fender amp he was lucky enough to score. :dontknow:
Oh, and I posted pics of the internals to my Uberschall, have at it, we're waiting. :dontknow:
Superlizard said:LOL!
And WTF is that, pics of your computer? (nice PCB construction) That doesn't prove anything - remember, *you're* the one who claimed the Uberschall is "all-t00b". :tard:
Seriously man, if you can't handle the tech/tone talk and related discourse; if you continue to feel the need to be
a complete wiseass by pissing all over my thread, then it's simple: GTFO of my tone test. :icon_thumright:
Death by Uberschall said:"Hate to tell you, but there is no diode clipping in a Bogner, it's all t00b." is what I said.
Which means I'm saying the overdrive and distortion comes from the tubes. I never said it was point to point or anything like that. And point to point vs.a properly designed PCB has been proven not to be a major factor in tone. http://www.bogneramplification.com/customshop/Pcboard.php
Death by Uberschall said:Every SLO built has been PCB, still considered one of the best amps ever.
Death by Uberschall said:And you're the one who claims it's not all tube.
You said, "So, until I see an official schematic for one, I refuse to believe your claims that there's no clipping circuit."
So I give you what's available, photos of my amp. Show me the diode clipping circuit. Take the tube layout, flip it over end to end and it will match the pic layout. Follow the circuit traces and show me where the diode clipping circuit is and which tube/s it's affecting.
We're waiting. :dontknow:
Superlizard said:Death by Uberschall said:Here's the deal with your test. Adding a solid state overdrive/distortion pedal puts the hard sterile clipping fizz/buzz into the signal that tubes don't. So by adding it in, you make the tube amps have the same quality of a cheap modeler. You've got to let the tube amps speak for themselves.
I only agree with the above ("same quality") *if* you lay tons of clipping on the tone from a stomp (crank ths dist/gain on the stomp).
The other thing in all this, even if you're introducing an extra preamp t00b stage(s) inside the amp (which is possible with your Bogner)... you cannot
say that there's enough of a difference tone-wise between 1) extra preamp t00b stages ... and 2) a stomp box. They both achieve the same desired goal.
Hell, some stomp boxes even have a preamp t00b in them - not that it matters vs. solid state pedal design.
Or to simplify things, you're not going to hear any "t00b difference" in an extra t00b stage or t00b-loaded stomp versus a S.S. stomp. This fallacy was
perpetuated repeatedly in the awful rack days of the late 80's when guitar preamp rack equip manufacturers touted their products as having "an actual t00b"
in their stuff... there is no audible difference - pure bullshitee.
Death by Uberschall said:BTW, last time I checked, your JTM45RI that's been modded to 60's specs is PCB construction. So unless you've changed it to point to point construction, what's the point of making that comment?
Superlizard said:P.S. You should stop hanging out with Gary - he's bitter, and a bad influence. :icon_jokercolor:
What's really surprising is that you assume there's no way to get high gain from a tube pre-amp section without using cheap diode circuits. Just because Marshall went the cheap and easy route doesn't mean everybody else did. The level is really controlled by how many stages cascade together and what resisters are used between them. The Uberschall has 4 stages, the SLO has 5 stages and the 5150 has 6 stages of gain. You could change some resisters in your Fender and make it a higher gain pre-amp. But you might not like the sound because the rest of the amp is not designed around that.Superlizard said:Not only that, how do you suppose your Bogner (for ex.) gets all its gain? It ain't just from t00bs... there's certainly some
sort of diode clipping (my old Marshall 2210 100watt head had this) or other clipping-generating circuit in there... it's just
like having a built-in stompbox.
Death by Uberschall said:No, actually it is, we're waiting, as a few people I've talked to on this board are waiting for your analysis. :icon_thumright:
I'm not even going to get into an argument with you about the SLO. Ever play one? Those who have spent any real time with one know what the hype is about. And since you're raising the question, I guess you haven't and don't know.
Do you think your the only person who knows what to look for in an amp? You give yourself way too much credit. I've been in mine and see no signs of a diode clipping circuit. I belong to the Bogner forum, as well as many others that have discussions about these amps, and I'm sure that if somebody discovered a cheap diode clipping circuit in a boutique amp, it would be brought out into the open and bashed on. But just to be sure I asked the experts, Bogner. Here's a copy of my email and their response:
info@bogneramplification.com
to me
show details 11:29 AM (0 minutes ago)
It's all tube.
Thanks,
Charley Polacheck
Bogner Amplification
11411 Vanowen Street
North Hollywood, Ca. 91605
818-765-8929
- Hide quoted text -
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike
To: info@bogneramplification.com
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:06 AM
Subject: Uberschall question
Hello,
Does the Uberschall get any of it's gain or distortion from any kind of solid state clipping circuit or is it purely tube overdrive?
Thanks for your time.
--
-Mike
I also offered up that the SLO schematics are out there for you to find. There are no clipping diodes in those amps either. Strange how you haven't said anything about that. :icon_scratch:
Here, I'll make it easy for you. http://sloclone.yesterdaysrevolt.com/schematics/SLOCLONE-OFFICIAL-SCHEM.pdf
What's really surprising is that you assume there's no way to get high gain from a tube pre-amp section without using cheap diode circuits. Just because Marshall went the cheap and easy route doesn't mean everybody else did. The level is really controlled by how many stages cascade together and what resisters are used between them. The Uberschall has 4 stages, the SLO has 5 stages and the 5150 has 6 stages of gain. You could change some resisters in your Fender and make it a higher gain pre-amp. But you might not like the sound because the rest of the amp is not designed around that.Superlizard said:Not only that, how do you suppose your Bogner (for ex.) gets all its gain? It ain't just from t00bs... there's certainly some
sort of diode clipping (my old Marshall 2210 100watt head had this) or other clipping-generating circuit in there... it's just
like having a built-in stompbox.
We can keep going round and round about all of this. But the reality is that your "Tone Test" is flawed, plain and simple.
I'm done with this discussion because it's getting no where. You believe what you want to believe, I'll believe what I want to believe and we can agree to disagree. ccasion14:
My apologies to everyone else that has had to endure the crap in this thread. It was not my intention.
I'm done. Have a nice day. :rock-on:
The thing is, whether or not your bogner has clipping circuitry in it was not the point - the point was that (and I reiterate) your statement
about throwing a stompbox in front of a t00b amp somehow puts it on equal ground with a cheap modeler is incorrect: bla bla
tfarny said:This thing started out cool and ended up with two kids seeing who can pee the farthest. Boooooring.