Shootout 01 - Pick The Imposter!

[DangerousR6]

I say #1 is the modeler.... :guitarplayer2:

 

[dbw]

I agree with DbU's post 100%.  I will also guess that 2 is the modeler, though I don't think 1 sounds very good either.  3 sounds great.

Also those clips are way too big...

 

[jackthehack]

"Here's the deal with your test. Adding a solid state overdrive/distortion pedal puts the hard sterile clipping fizz/buzz into the signal that tubes don't. So by adding it in, you make the tube amps have the same quality of a cheap modeler. You've got to let the tube amps speak for themselves."

:icon_thumright: +1 I really don't give a rat's ass about the "tests", you're NEVER going to get anything more than an unreasonable facsimile from any sort of modeling unit, but any comparison test like this should be guitar straight into amp or modeling unit; addition of other items in between muddy the results.

 

[Superlizard]

Bonus points for whomever can tell the Fender and the Marshall...  :icon_jokercolor:

Interesting turn-out so far (but mum's the word)!

 

[Superlizard]

Here's the deal with your test. Adding a solid state overdrive/distortion pedal puts the hard sterile clipping fizz/buzz into the signal that tubes don't. So by adding it in, you make the tube amps have the same quality of a cheap modeler. You've got to let the tube amps speak for themselves.

I only agree with the above ("same quality") *if* you lay tons of clipping on the tone from a stomp (crank ths dist/gain on the stomp).

Not only that, how do you suppose your Bogner (for ex.) gets all its gain?  It ain't just from t00bs... there's certainly some
sort of diode clipping (my old Marshall 2210 100watt head had this) or other clipping-generating circuit in there... it's just
like having a built-in stompbox.

Hey, who put the guy who hates modelers in charge of recording comparisons anyway?  :icon_jokercolor:  :laughing7:

Hey you're more than welcome to do your own tests... just make sure if you do, that you don't cheat by claiming one amp is a real "x" when both clips are your POD... like you did with your first one.  :icon_biggrin:

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Here's the deal with your test. Adding a solid state overdrive/distortion pedal puts the hard sterile clipping fizz/buzz into the signal that tubes don't. So by adding it in, you make the tube amps have the same quality of a cheap modeler. You've got to let the tube amps speak for themselves.

I only agree with the above ("same quality") *if* you lay tons of clipping on the tone from a stomp (crank ths dist/gain on the stomp).

Not only that, how do you suppose your Bogner (for ex.) gets all its gain?  It ain't just from t00bs... there's certainly some
sort of diode clipping (my old Marshall 2210 100watt head had this) or other clipping-generating circuit in there... it's just
like having a built-in stompbox.

Hey, who put the guy who hates modelers in charge of recording comparisons anyway?  :icon_jokercolor:  :laughing7:

Hey you're more than welcome to do your own tests... just make sure if you do, that you don't cheat by claiming one amp is a real "x" when both clips are your POD... like you did with your first one.   :icon_biggrin:

Hate to tell you, but there is no diode clipping in a Bogner, it's all t00b.
Sorry Marshall cheated on the amp you had. I had a silver jubilee head with the diode clipping, and didn't keep it for long. The clean channel was nice, but the overdrive channel sucked because of the diode clipping.

Like I said earlier, that comparison I posted was a joke to see if anybody would catch it. That's why I never got into the discussion of which was which. :icon_thumright:

I've said many times, you want a real comparison, then do a real comparison. Don't cloud it with other factors like pedals, mismatched eq, etc. Dial them in for the same eq curves. And push those amps so the power sections come into play, not bedroom levels.

 

[Superlizard]

Hate to tell you, but there is no diode clipping in a Bogner, it's all t00b.

Out of curiousity (call me a skeptic with anything most say here), what makes you so sure there's
no sort of S.S. clipping circuit (diode or other) in there?

Have you confirmed this by looking at the schematic/opening up the amp?

Or are you just making assumptions?

I haven't looked at any Bogner schemas (for obvious reasons), but it appears from google searching that finding a schematic for the uberschall is difficult.

(go ahead and try google search)

The other thing in all this, even if you're introducing an extra preamp t00b stage(s) inside the amp (which is possible with your Bogner)... you cannot
say that there's enough of a difference tone-wise between 1) extra preamp t00b stages ... and 2) a stomp box.  They both achieve the same desired goal.
Hell, some stomp boxes even have a preamp t00b in them - not that it matters vs. solid state pedal design.

Or to simply things, you're not going to hear any "t00b difference" in an extra t00b stage or t00b-loaded stomp versus a S.S. stomp.  This fallacy was
perpetuated repeatedly in the awful rack days of the late 80's when guitar preamp rack equip manufacturers touted their products as having "an actual t00b"
in their stuff... there is no audible difference - pure bullshit.

Let's take a look at the t00b layout (best I can find so far) from the official site:

========================================================

V1: Input tube for both channels, 12ax7

V2: High gain channel, 12ax7

V3: High gain channel, 12ax7

V4: Clean channel 2nd stage, 12ax7

V5: Loop, 12ax7

V6: Phase Inverter, 12ax7

V7 through V10: Power Tubes, EL34

========================================

The amp appears to be a 2 channel amp - clean and dirty.  V1 takes care of that.

The High Gain channel shows as having two more 12AX7s in its circuit.  V6 shows as the phase inverter.
Therefore, there *must* be an "extra" 12AX7 in the High Gain channel circuit ("extra" as compared to typical old-school Marshall circuit for ex... 3 12AX7s total).

(in other words, the High Gain channel circuit contains a total of 4 12AX7s)

Even so, with an "extra" t00b gain stage, that ain't enough for mondo-massive modern day nu-metal tone.  Back in the 80's they would (gasp) cut up
old Marshalls and add an extra 12AX7 to get that "Eddie tone" (thanks, Ed... ).  Not even close...

So, until I see an official schematic for one, I refuse to believe your claims that there's no clipping circuit.  I have no reason to, because
it's nigh impossible to find a schematic for one, and as well you have no track record here of t00b amp building, modding or troubleshooting,
so I highly doubt you've been inside your Uberschall, or any t00b amp for that matter.  I say you're making an assumption... perhaps parroted
from some other BBS where they were talking about Bogners or what have you.

You're more than welcome to prove otherwise, of course.  I'm just a skeptical bastard is all.  :icon_scratch:

 

[dmraco]

who care...love the BANDLANDS!

 

[blue313]

I'll go with #1 as the modeler. It's tough considering it apples/oranges/pomegrantes.  :dontknow:

 

[Rouse]

I felt like #1 was the fake, #2 was the marshall, and #3 was the fender

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Hate to tell you, but there is no diode clipping in a Bogner, it's all t00b.

Out of curiousity (call me a skeptic with anything most say here), what makes you so sure there's
no sort of S.S. clipping circuit (diode or other) in there?

Have you confirmed this by looking at the schematic/opening up the amp?

Or are you just making assumptions?

I haven't looked at any Bogner schemas (for obvious reasons), but it appears from google searching that finding a schematic for the uberschall is difficult.

(go ahead and try google search)

The other thing in all this, even if you're introducing an extra preamp t00b stage(s) inside the amp (which is possible with your Bogner)... you cannot
say that there's enough of a difference tone-wise between 1) extra preamp t00b stages ... and 2) a stomp box.  They both achieve the same desired goal.
Hell, some stomp boxes even have a preamp t00b in them - not that it matters vs. solid state pedal design.

Or to simply things, you're not going to hear any "t00b difference" in an extra t00b stage or t00b-loaded stomp versus a S.S. stomp.  This fallacy was
perpetuated repeatedly in the awful rack days of the late 80's when guitar preamp rack equip manufacturers touted their products as having "an actual t00b"
in their stuff... there is no audible difference - pure bullshitee.

Let's take a look at the t00b layout (best I can find so far) from the official site:

========================================================

V1: Input tube for both channels, 12ax7

V2: High gain channel, 12ax7

V3: High gain channel, 12ax7

V4: Clean channel 2nd stage, 12ax7

V5: Loop, 12ax7

V6: Phase Inverter, 12ax7

V7 through V10: Power Tubes, EL34

========================================

The amp appears to be a 2 channel amp - clean and dirty.  V1 takes care of that.

The High Gain channel shows as having two more 12AX7s in its circuit.  V6 shows as the phase inverter.
Therefore, there *must* be an "extra" 12AX7 in the High Gain channel circuit ("extra" as compared to typical old-school Marshall circuit for ex... 3 12AX7s total).

(in other words, the High Gain channel circuit contains a total of 4 12AX7s)

Even so, with an "extra" t00b gain stage, that ain't enough for mondo-massive modern day nu-metal tone.  Back in the 80's they would (gasp) cut up
old Marshalls and add an extra 12AX7 to get that "Eddie tone" (thanks, Ed... ).  Not even close...

So, until I see an official schematic for one, I refuse to believe your claims that there's no clipping circuit.  I have no reason to, because
it's nigh impossible to find a schematic for one, and as well you have no track record here of t00b amp building, modding or troubleshooting,
so I highly doubt you've been inside your Uberschall, or any t00b amp for that matter.  I say you're making an assumption... perhaps parroted
from some other BBS where they were talking about Bogners or what have you.

You're more than welcome to prove otherwise, of course.  I'm just a skeptical bastard is all.   :icon_scratch:

Two things:

#1. I don't swing that way, so stop hitting up on me and singling me out, I'm not taking your home with me, get over it. I don't play for the "Packers".

#2. I really don't give a shite what you think you know about me, my amp/s, or life in general. So let's just get that straight early on, don't want you to get confused over that.

I do my own amp servicing and modding, pedal mods and pedal building. I'm sure that I along with many others here have more than enough ability to swap out a few resistors and caps to change an amps tone and feel.

I agree, adding another tube pre-amp stage doesn't change the tone, but in cascading pre-amp designs it does add gain. And it uses tube dynamics instead of a sterile transistor or LEDs. So, there is a different outcome sound wise. Your inability to recognize that tells me and others that you really don't have a clue. Hell, some amps don't even take advantage of or use both sides of all the 12ax7 tubes in their pre-amp.

Instead of attacking me personally, how about you put together a real world guitar into amp and guitar into modeler comparison and stop with all the "Flavors of Love" b.s. Or maybe you need to make them so different as to confuse people, that way you can claim you are right and the rest of the guitar playing community is wrong. Hey while your at, post five different amps with completely different eq settings and one modeler clip to sway the odds more in your favor while your at it.  :icon_thumright:

That's awesome, you were able to find the tube layout for my Uberschall. Nice detective work. Wow, I never would have thought that YOU would be able to go to the Bogner website and demonstrate the ability to copy and paste it here, And on top of that, you figured out it's a two channel amp all by yourself!! I'm truly impressed.  :icon_thumright:

Just because Marshall had to rely on clipping diodes to make their amps sound modern and distort doesn't mean world class builders like Bogner, Soldano, Rivera, etc. had to or did. I also own a SLO, and SLO schematics are all over the 'net. Grab you one and go to town with your bad ass Sherlock Holmes self.

I don't know why I'm even wasting my time discussing anything with a guy who can barely pull off Thin Lizzy licks through a nice Fender amp he was lucky enough to score.  :dontknow:

Oh, and I posted pics of the internals to my Uberschall, have at it, we're waiting.  :dontknow:

 

[Superlizard]

Two things:

#1. I don't swing that way, so stop hitting up on me and singling me out, I'm not taking your home with me, get over it. I don't play for the "Packers".

#2. I really don't give a shiteeeee what you think you know about me, my amp/s, or life in general. So let's just get that straight early on, don't want you to get confused over that.

I do my own amp servicing and modding, pedal mods and pedal building. I'm sure that I along with many others here have more than enough ability to swap out a few resistors and caps to change an amps tone and feel.

I agree, adding another tube pre-amp stage doesn't change the tone, but in cascading pre-amp designs it does add gain. And it uses tube dynamics instead of a sterile transistor or LEDs. So, there is a different outcome sound wise. Your inability to recognize that tells me and others that you really don't have a clue. Hell, some amps don't even take advantage of or use both sides of all the 12ax7 tubes in their pre-amp.

Instead of attacking me personally, how about you put together a real world guitar into amp and guitar into modeler comparison and stop with all the "Flavors of Love" b.s. Or maybe you need to make them so different as to confuse people, that way you can claim you are right and the rest of the guitar playing community is wrong. Hey while your at, post five different amps with completely different eq settings and one modeler clip to sway the odds more in your favor while your at it.  :icon_thumright:

That's awesome, you were able to find the tube layout for my Uberschall. Nice detective work. Wow, I never would have thought that YOU would be able to go to the Bogner website and demonstrate the ability to copy and paste it here, And on top of that, you figured out it's a two channel amp all by yourself!! I'm truly impressed.  :icon_thumright:

Just because Marshall had to rely on clipping diodes to make their amps sound modern and distort doesn't mean world class builders like Bogner, Soldano, Rivera, etc. had to or did. I also own a SLO, and SLO schematics are all over the 'net. Grab you one and go to town with your bad ass Sherlock Holmes self.

I don't know why I'm even wasting my time discussing anything with a guy who can barely pull off Thin Lizzy licks through a nice Fender amp he was lucky enough to score.  :dontknow:

Oh, and I posted pics of the internals to my Uberschall, have at it, we're waiting.  :dontknow:

 LOL!

And WTF is that, pics of your computer? (nice PCB construction) That doesn't prove anything - remember, *you're* the one who claimed the Uberschall is "all-t00b".   :tard:

How 'bout a schematic?

Seriously man, if you can't handle the tech/tone talk and related discourse; if you continue to feel the need to be
a complete wiseass by pissing all over my thread, then it's simple:  GTFO of my tone test.   :icon_thumright:

P.S.  You should stop hanging out with Gary - he's bitter, and a bad influence.  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Death by Uberschall]

 LOL!

And WTF is that, pics of your computer? (nice PCB construction) That doesn't prove anything - remember, *you're* the one who claimed the Uberschall is "all-t00b".   :tard:

Seriously man, if you can't handle the tech/tone talk and related discourse; if you continue to feel the need to be
a complete wiseass by pissing all over my thread, then it's simple:  GTFO of my tone test.   :icon_thumright:

"Hate to tell you, but there is no diode clipping in a Bogner, it's all t00b." is what I said.
Which means I'm saying the overdrive and distortion comes from the tubes. I never said it was point to point or anything like that. And point to point vs.a properly designed PCB has been proven not to be a major factor in tone. http://www.bogneramplification.com/customshop/Pcboard.php Every SLO built has been PCB, still considered one of the best amps ever.

And you're the one who claims it's not all tube.
You said, "So, until I see an official schematic for one, I refuse to believe your claims that there's no clipping circuit."

So I give you what's available, photos of my amp. Show me the diode clipping circuit. Take the tube layout, flip it over end to end and it will match the pic layout. Follow the circuit traces and show me where the diode clipping circuit is and which tube/s it's affecting.

We're waiting.  :dontknow:

BTW, last time I checked, your JTM45RI that's been modded to 60's specs is PCB construction. So unless you've changed it to point to point construction, what's the point of making that comment?

 

[Superlizard]

"Hate to tell you, but there is no diode clipping in a Bogner, it's all t00b." is what I said.
Which means I'm saying the overdrive and distortion comes from the tubes. I never said it was point to point or anything like that. And point to point vs.a properly designed PCB has been proven not to be a major factor in tone. http://www.bogneramplification.com/customshop/Pcboard.php

That's right:  PTP has no audible difference over PCB.  But when it comes to 1) input jacks 2) pots 3) t00b sockets, PTP is far superior in reliability.  Not to mention much easier to trace, repair and mod.

And yes, for the record, all my stompboxes use flying leads... as they should considering the abuse.

Every SLO built has been PCB, still considered one of the best amps ever.

By whom?  :icon_scratch:

And you're the one who claims it's not all tube.
You said, "So, until I see an official schematic for one, I refuse to believe your claims that there's no clipping circuit."
So I give you what's available, photos of my amp. Show me the diode clipping circuit. Take the tube layout, flip it over end to end and it will match the pic layout. Follow the circuit traces and show me where the diode clipping circuit is and which tube/s it's affecting.

We're waiting.  :dontknow:

You meant to say, "I'm waiting".  Nobody else gives a flying frog fart.  :icon_biggrin:

I don't see anything suspicious at a glance, but fact is, it's impossible to tell on that kind of PCB construction... there could be components *on the flip side* of the PCB board(s)... there could be another
little PCB board hidden underneath all that.  They make these amps nowadays like a fuggin' PC laptop; all sandwiched together and on top of each other.

And again, what makes you so sure?  How do you know for sure it doesn't have clipping circuitry without a schematic, and considering the website says jack sh!t about it?

You've never stated *your* reasoning.

It's not unreasonable at all for me to say, "let's see the schematic" - because the schematic doesn't lie... it's fact.  And the other fact is, unless *you've*
seen the schematic, or have completely disassembled the amp (and know what to look for), you don't know for sure.

The thing is, whether or not your bogner has clipping circuitry in it was not the point - the point was that (and I reiterate) your statement
about throwing a stompbox in front of a t00b amp somehow puts it on equal ground with a cheap modeler is incorrect:

Here's the deal with your test. Adding a solid state overdrive/distortion pedal puts the hard sterile clipping fizz/buzz into the signal that tubes don't. So by adding it in, you make the tube amps have the same quality of a cheap modeler. You've got to let the tube amps speak for themselves.

I only agree with the above ("same quality") *if* you lay tons of clipping on the tone from a stomp (crank ths dist/gain on the stomp).

and:

The other thing in all this, even if you're introducing an extra preamp t00b stage(s) inside the amp (which is possible with your Bogner)... you cannot
say that there's enough of a difference tone-wise between 1) extra preamp t00b stages ... and 2) a stomp box.  They both achieve the same desired goal.
Hell, some stomp boxes even have a preamp t00b in them - not that it matters vs. solid state pedal design.

Or to simplify things, you're not going to hear any "t00b difference" in an extra t00b stage or t00b-loaded stomp versus a S.S. stomp.  This fallacy was
perpetuated repeatedly in the awful rack days of the late 80's when guitar preamp rack equip manufacturers touted their products as having "an actual t00b"
in their stuff... there is no audible difference - pure bullshitee.

Not only that, countless albums have been recorded whereupon the guitarist(s) placed some type of stomp in front of their Marshall or Fender, and the resultant
tone was a far cry from "hard sterile clipping fizz/buzz".  It's only when the amount of preamp dist. *overpowers* the amp that you get the fizzys (Master Volumes can be prone to this).

BTW, last time I checked, your JTM45RI that's been modded to 60's specs is PCB construction. So unless you've changed it to point to point construction, what's the point of making that comment?

It is PTP now - I changed it back in '04-'05 or so.  The stock RI sounded like a big fat flabby fart.

Mods:

- Metro Amps JTM45 PTP board kit (fiberglass PTP board + components)
- other period-correct value resistors/caps (such as Vol 1 bright cap - 100pF)
- period-correct filtering (16+16uF preamp, 32+32uF power)
- Mercury Magnetics OT (OJTM45-16 or something)
- 1W resistors on powert00b sockets (for biasing)
- teflon wiring where applicable (great stuff - doesn't burn)
- had KT66s in there (original used Sovtek [puke] 5881s) but have been using THD Yellowjackets for the longest time

I still have the old PCB board lying around somewhere... can't decide whether to toss it, or use it as a bookmark.  It's a pathetic looking wafer.

 

[dbw]

I can only see the 4 rectifier diodes in there... I seriously doubt a Bogner Uberschall uses diode clipping.

 

[GoDrex]

P.S.  You should stop hanging out with Gary - he's bitter, and a bad influence.   :icon_jokercolor:

hey thanks for the mention :icon_thumright:

add me on Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/garyodrechsel

or soundclick:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=795734&content=music

you guys could save a lot of time trying to figure out who's dick is bigger by using a ruler. :laughing7:

 

[tfarny]

This thing started out cool and ended up with two kids seeing who can pee the farthest. Boooooring.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

No, actually it is, we're waiting, as a few people I've talked to on this board are waiting for your analysis.   :icon_thumright:

I'm not even going to get into an argument with you about the SLO. Ever play one? Those who have spent any real time with one know what the hype is about. And since you're raising the question, I guess you haven't and don't know.

Do you think your the only person who knows what to look for in an amp? You give yourself way too much credit. I've been in mine and see no signs of a diode clipping circuit. I belong to the Bogner forum, as well as many others that have discussions about these amps, and I'm sure that if somebody discovered a cheap diode clipping circuit in a boutique amp, it would be brought out into the open and bashed on. But just to be sure I asked the experts, Bogner. Here's a copy of my email and their response:

info@bogneramplification.com
to me

show details 11:29 AM (0 minutes ago)

It's all tube.
Thanks,
Charley Polacheck
Bogner Amplification
11411 Vanowen Street
North Hollywood, Ca. 91605
818-765-8929
- Hide quoted text -

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Mike
    To: info@bogneramplification.com
    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:06 AM
    Subject: Uberschall question

    Hello,

    Does the Uberschall get any of it's gain or distortion from any kind of solid state clipping circuit or is it purely tube overdrive?

    Thanks for your time.

    --
    -Mike

I also offered up that the SLO schematics are out there for you to find. There are no clipping diodes in those amps either. Strange how you haven't said anything about that.  :icon_scratch:
Here, I'll make it easy for you. http://sloclone.yesterdaysrevolt.com/schematics/SLOCLONE-OFFICIAL-SCHEM.pdf

Not only that, how do you suppose your Bogner (for ex.) gets all its gain?  It ain't just from t00bs... there's certainly some
sort of diode clipping (my old Marshall 2210 100watt head had this) or other clipping-generating circuit in there... it's just
like having a built-in stompbox.

What's really surprising is that you assume there's no way to get high gain from a tube pre-amp section without using cheap diode circuits. Just because Marshall went the cheap and easy route doesn't mean everybody else did. The level is really controlled by how many stages cascade together and what resisters are used between them. The Uberschall has 4 stages, the SLO has 5 stages and the 5150 has 6 stages of gain. You could change some resisters in your Fender and make it a higher gain pre-amp. But you might not like the sound because the rest of the amp is not designed around that.

We can keep going round and round about all of this. But the reality is that your "Tone Test" is flawed, plain and simple.

I'm done with this discussion because it's getting no where. You believe what you want to believe, I'll believe what I want to believe and we can agree to disagree.  ccasion14:

My apologies to everyone else that has had to endure the crap in this thread. It was not my intention.

I'm done. Have a nice day.  :rock-on:

 

[Superlizard]

No, actually it is, we're waiting, as a few people I've talked to on this board are waiting for your analysis.   :icon_thumright:

I'm not even going to get into an argument with you about the SLO. Ever play one? Those who have spent any real time with one know what the hype is about. And since you're raising the question, I guess you haven't and don't know.

Do you think your the only person who knows what to look for in an amp? You give yourself way too much credit. I've been in mine and see no signs of a diode clipping circuit. I belong to the Bogner forum, as well as many others that have discussions about these amps, and I'm sure that if somebody discovered a cheap diode clipping circuit in a boutique amp, it would be brought out into the open and bashed on. But just to be sure I asked the experts, Bogner. Here's a copy of my email and their response:

info@bogneramplification.com
to me

show details 11:29 AM (0 minutes ago)

It's all tube.
Thanks,
Charley Polacheck
Bogner Amplification
11411 Vanowen Street
North Hollywood, Ca. 91605
818-765-8929
- Hide quoted text -

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Mike
    To: info@bogneramplification.com
    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:06 AM
    Subject: Uberschall question

    Hello,

    Does the Uberschall get any of it's gain or distortion from any kind of solid state clipping circuit or is it purely tube overdrive?

    Thanks for your time.

    --
    -Mike

I also offered up that the SLO schematics are out there for you to find. There are no clipping diodes in those amps either. Strange how you haven't said anything about that.  :icon_scratch:
Here, I'll make it easy for you. http://sloclone.yesterdaysrevolt.com/schematics/SLOCLONE-OFFICIAL-SCHEM.pdf

Not only that, how do you suppose your Bogner (for ex.) gets all its gain?  It ain't just from t00bs... there's certainly some
sort of diode clipping (my old Marshall 2210 100watt head had this) or other clipping-generating circuit in there... it's just
like having a built-in stompbox.

What's really surprising is that you assume there's no way to get high gain from a tube pre-amp section without using cheap diode circuits. Just because Marshall went the cheap and easy route doesn't mean everybody else did. The level is really controlled by how many stages cascade together and what resisters are used between them. The Uberschall has 4 stages, the SLO has 5 stages and the 5150 has 6 stages of gain. You could change some resisters in your Fender and make it a higher gain pre-amp. But you might not like the sound because the rest of the amp is not designed around that.

We can keep going round and round about all of this. But the reality is that your "Tone Test" is flawed, plain and simple.

I'm done with this discussion because it's getting no where. You believe what you want to believe, I'll believe what I want to believe and we can agree to disagree.  ccasion14:

My apologies to everyone else that has had to endure the crap in this thread. It was not my intention.

I'm done. Have a nice day.  :rock-on:

I did state I didn't see anything at a glance.

But I also reiterated, that the Bogner Ub. + clipping circuit (or not)... was not the point... once more (with feeling, and the last time):

The thing is, whether or not your bogner has clipping circuitry in it was not the point - the point was that (and I reiterate) your statement
about throwing a stompbox in front of a t00b amp somehow puts it on equal ground with a cheap modeler is incorrect: bla bla

 

[Superlizard]

This thing started out cool and ended up with two kids seeing who can pee the farthest. Boooooring.

You're just jealous because:

:icon_biggrin: