How to set up bridge with compound radius finger board?

[Cagey]

I've never met a bridge I couldn't palm-mute, so that's hardly a "feature" of the TOM bridge. Also, comparing anything to a Floyd Rose is never good practice; the FR is a beast unto itself. It was the first vibrato bridge that would maintain tune while giving you some reasonable range of motion, and for that it deserves recognition. But, the state of the art has improved and you no longer need to deal with the various idiosyncrasies that design presents along with its solutions. Almost everybody builds something better these days.

Losing the knife edge of the saddle on a TOM isn't an issue, as long as the front face is the last thing the string touches. In fact, it's preferable, unless you own stock in a string company or don't care about staying in tune. So, you can dig as deep as you want for the string slots as long as you don't constrict or hug the sides of the strings. In other words, you want a "V" slot cut that slopes back toward wherever the string is anchored, be it through the body, around a tailpiece, tied to a trapeze retainer or hooked into some sort of tension adjust like a jankie old Fender vibrato such as is found on old Jazzmasters/Jaguars/Mustangs.

The Gotoh 510 is a fine bridge, although like the TOM the most recent models don't have any saddle height adjustment. It's basically a smoother, more comfortable  and more stable TOM with greater mass that won't fall off when you remove your strings. Also, it's a wrap-around, so you don't need a tailpiece that also falls off without any string tension to hold it in place.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

What Cagey said about the intonation saddles is what I would say as well.  To look at it from another standpoint, the nut has a heck of a flat spot on it, and no one seems to fuss about that robbing them of tone.  I personally don't find the bridge falling off something that happens to me, but I don't take all of the strings off at once.  I agree it can be something that will cause you to catch your breath if you have an incredible finish on a guitar, and the stopbar makes a move to try to mar it.  However, That is a very limited problem.

If you like the TOM Stopbar and have good memories of a guitar that had one, then build one like that.  If it makes you smile thinking about, you'll probably enjoy playing it more as well.  That is probably worth more tone wise than most things you can do.
Patrick

 

[Last Triumph]

Thanks,  the comparison to the nut width etc  makes sense - I 'get it' now.

I was never going to use a stop bar - if I go with a TOM, it'll be a locking Tonepros and string through ferrules.

Or it'll be a 510. I like the idea of an 'all in one' design, as long as it's as comfortable as a TOM??

 

[Cagey]

I think the 510 is more comfortable than the TOM. It has softer edges and a wider base.

 

[Last Triumph]

Do the 510's sound nice? Is there a difference between the tone of a TOM and a 510 or are they much of a muchness?

I'm also loving this..

But can't seem to find any reviews.

Also, why are some bridges made from aluminum? I would imagine it's too soft and light to transmit the tone well enough compared to brass or stainless etc?

 

[stubhead]

I've "fixed" a few tunematics of guitar students, there was a brief period where Schecter was shipping out some moderate-price-or-another guitar with a 16" radius and equipping them with some ol' 12" radius Chinese-prison-factory tunematic. I didn't even do anything to the top flat of the saddles, just used some little files to deepen the notches in the center. Like on a nut, the notches should slope backwards to the string's point of origin, without a really sharp spike. In this case, angle the slots back towards the back of the bridge. I have a bunch of files, most of which aren't "guitar" tools, but nut files work fine - they're not really nut files at all, they're just re-named (and re-priced! :laughing7 industrial metal files anyway. For making atom bombs and movie monsters and motorcycle bits. Another good thing to have around is one of the sets of miniature needle files that are on the Bay all the time, I think I got mine at an ACE Hardware bargain bin for $2.99(?)  Locksmiths, jewelers, model makers, they all use the same tools, they just pay 1/3 the price as guitarists!

Since a Les Paul is "worth" $400,000, don't YOU DESERVE the very best nutfile, blah blah doodleshits etc.

Since I was going from a 12' radius on the bridge to a straight 16" radius, I didn't have to take off as much as going to the (HYPOTHETICAL) 18" Warmoth R. But I think the idea is to NOT grind all the flat off, as long as the string is happy in it's trench - I read somewhere that the contact area in a nut slot "should" be .060", but even I can't get that anal. Enough is... enough. you just have to think about what the slot needs to be shaped like.

[size=18pt]THINK ABOUT SOMETHING?[/size] Gasp.....

For what it's worth, Godin spent quite some time (1 year+) shipping out their top-o'-the-line synth-access $1,900 hot-doodah gits with a 16" board and a 12" bridge... and you can't file piezo bridge inserts. There was much ado on the boards.

 

[Cagey]

The 510s have more mass and sturdier mounting posts, so tone issues aside (which are probably non-existent anyway), it's possible they provide better sustain than the TOM bridges do. Of course, if you've ever played a Les Paul you'd wonder why anyone would accuse a TOM of diminishing sustain. (Hint: they don't.)

As far as aluminum/zinc vs. steel/brass/unobtainium as a fab material, I suspect it depends more on the design of the bridge more than anything else. While aluminum has a high strength-to-weight ratio, that doesn't mean you can make flimsy things out of it and expect them to hold up.

Tone/sustain on a guitar is all about absorption/subtraction. Different materials will absorb vibration at different rates and frequencies. So, what you're really looking for is how firmly things mount, how hard the things you mount to are, and how much mass is involved with the various components.

Once you're done obsessing over all that, the pickups are the actual boss.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Most bridges of this type are Brass or Aluminum because it is much easier to cast.  A lot of the old ones from the guitars with mythical tone were zinc.  Yup, zinc.  You can get a steel one from Callaham, it is CNC milled, but there is a major price jump.  I got a Callaham one on my last guitar to satisfy the curiosity dork in me.  As one would expect, it is much brighter with a lot of articulation.  I cannot say how much of this is due to the bridge, but comparing it to a guitar made of similar woods with a standard TOM/Stopbar, it has more definition and high end.  Is it worth the money?  For me, yes.  I enjoy it immensely, so yeah.  But, I can see how others might go another route.

As far as what brand or model, I like the standard TOM/Stopbar.  Looks right to me, and so I go with it.
Patrick

 

[Alfang]

Sorry I'm late to this thread, just read every post. Cagey and a few others did a good job of explaining why the bridge should be 18" radius for a 10-16 compund radius neck, I agree

But I was really looking forward to Street Avengers aha moment, I didn't see it

Of course you don't need to split atoms on all your setup points, you can get a guitar to play and sound fantastic with things being setup to " Close"  But whynot set it up perfect, you got the time, tools and a knowlege base here and through google of how to set up each part of a guitar to "Perfect" I just don't get some of you not pushing the envelope of the best setup possible.

And you don't need to do it all at once, every couple a weeks, find a point on your guitar and read up on the best setup for that, and try it, the nut, the sadle heights, pickup heights, truss rod intonation etc...
In the end youl be a setup Master

 

[Strat Avenger]

In my younger days, anything other than the typical Strat bridge felt awkward to me, but now, I have no problem switching from a Strat bridge, to a Floyd, to a TOM/STP. In fact it's so natural, I don't even think about it now.

 

[stubhead]

I have gotten majorly, like, headhunted and denounced to the Queen for even daring to suggest that you might want to set the intonation with strings that are a bit settled in. EVERYBODY KNOWS you put on brand new strings to set your intonation... then watch it drift further and further off, unless you do happen to be Carlos Santana with a string deal and a bunch of flunkies to change all the strings on every guitar every day. Most of the drifting happens in the first six hours or so of playing, but I have enough guitars that some are going to sit a good long while. And you don't even have to play them, you can intonate a guitar with brand new strings, set it aside for a few weeks without playing it and it will be both out of tune and the intonation will have drifted. I though I had hit on something intelligent but the villagers had their pitchforks and tar 'n' feathers all ready & waiting for me.

I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7ChohrWzJc&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL004BDF7D4F5ACB7D

 

[Cagey]

I have gotten majorly, like, headhunted and denounced to the Queen for even daring to suggest that you might want to set the intonation with strings that are a bit settled in.

I used to have a love/hate relationship with new strings. Loved 'em because they sounded good, but hated 'em because they showed up fretboard deficiencies until they wore in, at which point it was generally time to replace them. It's one of the things that drove me to learn how to do proper fretwork and setups. Get that right, and it's not an issue any more.

I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

Good ol' Eric. Gotta love him. But, I think I prefer the old version better. More angsty. I mean, it's basically a melancholy tune, so what's with the guitar pyrotechnics? Plus, his voice is all wrong for it. The original tune is essentially a wistful, plaintive drone about a man's current station in life, and Eric sounds like a eager puppy looking for pets.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Pitchfork not raised, but that never occurred to me.  You can't throw that out there and not elaborate.  What changes?

 

[Cagey]

Strings wear, particularly at the fretting points. So, the string is thinner there. As strange as it sounds, old strings actually play better than new ones because they don't bang on the frets so much. The contact points have a couple/few thousandths more clearance. Problem is, old strings don't vibrate as well because they're all out of shape and full of finger residue, so they sound bad. Put a new set on, and they ring true and you love what you've done for your baby, but they buzz like hell until you wear them out a bit. Then it's time to replace them because they're fulla finger kukka again.

Bass players have been boiling their strings for years because they're so expensive. Get rid of the finger kukka, and they ring nicely again while still having the wear points in place. Guitar players generally don't go through those kinds of gyrations because it's too much work for a $3 set of strings and you'd have to do it every week.

 

[Strat Avenger]

That's why I always say wash your hands each and every time before a guitar playing session.
I can get 3 to 5 months out of a set of guitar strings, and I don't let other people play my guitars.

 

[stubhead]

You can't throw that out there and not elaborate.  What changes?

The strings start fretting flatter over time, when compared to the harmonic. It's a lot more noticeable higher up the neck - there's both a note and matching harmonic at the 19th fret, and even with brand new strings, that pair often doesn't agree with the note and harmonic at the 12th fret. If your frets were dressed by the Fret Angel, it's high tide; and 2:00 Tuesday afternoon; maybe.

And as the strings get older, they intonate flat.  I don't know if it's wear spots or slime or metal fatigue or Tezcatlipoca the Horned Jaguar God of Darkness, but just about every great guitarist I've seen sooner or later reaches over and tweaks the high E and/or G string tuner in the middle of playing. But if that leaves the open string sharp, the intonation is "wearing off." I have heard of bands in the studio that not only change strings and re-intonate their guitars after every song or every few hours, but they re-intonate their guitars between every single take. But I'm pretty sure that's how albums by bands like Coldplay and Nickelback turn out the way they do.

 

[Cagey]

I have heard of bands in the studio that not only change strings and re-intonate their guitars after every song or every few hours, but they re-intonate their guitars between every single take. But I'm pretty sure that's how albums by bands like Coldplay and Nickelback turn out the way they do.

Or, they're just anal retentive prima donnas with a glorified sense of self-importance and a blatant disregard for the cost of production, which is probably closer to the truth.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Where does it end?  Humidity and air pressure, check the weather before playing your guitars.

 

[Strat Avenger]

Or, they're just anal retentive prima donnas with a glorified sense of self-importance and a blatant disregard for the cost of production, which is probably closer to the truth.

+1

And...there's also this thing that studios use called "pitch correction". It's not even necessary to be a good singer anymore with today's technology.

 

[pabloman]

It never was...just look at Robert Plant.