Coronavirus Discussion

[Verne Bunsen]

No logical discussion of a moral dilemma would be complete without a little Spock  :icon_biggrin:

Another relevant Ben Franklin-ism is: “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Granted he could not have envisioned a global society connected in the ways that we are, but it is a thought provoking sentiment. Even assuming that every decision made by those in power during this scenario has been genuinely made in the best interest of the population, once the precedent is established and the public are conditioned to accept it, what are the chances that a convenient crisis will be available whenever a little extra control is desired? “Martial Law” results in pitchforks and torches;  “Shelter In Place” results in unquestioning obedience and self-policing within communities. Don’t think our benevolent overlords aren’t taking notes.

 

[mayfly]

The Canadian saying is "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose".  In this case the meaning is you can endanger yourself all you want.  But you have no right to endanger others.

 

[mayfly]

Oh!  I forgot the best thing that's going on here!

My wife works as a Pharmacist in a Hospital.  She just went back to work for the first time yesterday.  Her "arrive home" protocol, amongst other things, involves taking off all her clothes before she get's too far into the house.  :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

 

[ByteFrenzy]

In Belgium we have a couple of young people now in IC who took part in 'F**k Corona' parties the night before restaurants and pubs were forced to close. The life you put in danger COULD be your own.

 

[Verne Bunsen]

The Canadian saying is "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose".  In this case the meaning is you can endanger yourself all you want.  But you have no right to endanger others.

I like that a lot! I’m definitely stealing it. In simple situations it draws a distinct line. In situations where we are daily re-defining what actions “endanger others” to encompass more and more things, it starts to get a little murky.

 

[ByteFrenzy]

Oh!  I forgot the best thing that's going on here!

My wife works as a Pharmacist in a Hospital.  She just went back to work for the first time yesterday.  Her "arrive home" protocol, amongst other things, involves taking off all her clothes before she get's too far into the house.  :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

My wife is a teacher in kindergarten. Close enough. Mayfly, I can't thank you enough.

 

[PhilHill]

No logical discussion of a moral dilemma would be complete without a little Spock  :icon_biggrin:

Another relevant Ben Franklin-ism is: “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Granted he could not have envisioned a global society connected in the ways that we are, but it is a thought provoking sentiment. Even assuming that every decision made by those in power during this scenario has been genuinely made in the best interest of the population, once the precedent is established and the public are conditioned to accept it, what are the chances that a convenient crisis will be available whenever a little extra control is desired? “Martial Law” results in pitchforks and torches;  “Shelter In Place” results in unquestioning obedience and self-policing within communities. Don’t think our benevolent overlords aren’t taking notes.

I see your point on the Franklin-ism. However, as you say, unusual times. Actually I sometimes worry of the same things. I also wonder though, is totalitarian control not the ultimate result of the system we have chosen? Humans being what they are, can we ever really hope to enjoy the level of freedom we desire when the necessary level of maturity is essentially lacking in people?  I think we can both agree that some kind of policing and authoritarian control is needed to avoid total chaos in a society. How far do we go though? People have proven before that they will constantly push the "envelope" when it comes to law. Believe me, I don't advocate living in a control state. I have seen first hand what happens when Martial Law is invoked. It ain't pretty. But I've also seen what happens when you give total control over to people themselves, it quickly descends into survival of the biggest and meanest. That's even less pretty.

 

[guitarstv]

The Canadian saying is "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose".  In this case the meaning is you can endanger yourself all you want.  But you have no right to endanger others.

I like that a lot! I’m definitely stealing it. In simple situations it draws a distinct line. In situations where we are daily re-defining what actions “endanger others” to encompass more and more things, it starts to get a little murky.

Not murky at all in a quarantine situation like this one.

This disease is deadly (more than indicated by death rates - even people not by killed by it may end up with permanent lung damage), and highly transmissible before people know they even have it.  Stay away from other people so you don't get infected and infect others.  When the infected cases reduce to a level that infectious disease experts deem safe to revert to old ways, then do so.

That's pretty clear to me.  Which part is murky?

 

[Cagey]

I think he's talking about the fear of the "slippery slope", where when you give an inch, a mile is taken. And who decides? And why? Let 'em lock everybody's movement and ability to fee-associate, and what do you have? Then the walls meant to keep people out also serve to keep people in. Before you know it, you've got an isolated society and no freedom.

 

[PhilHill]

Oh, I nearly forgot to say also that in reality, nothing the Authorities are doing right now is setting precedent. The ability to do the kinds of things their invoking now has long existed. During World Wars people were told how long and at what time they could run their house lights. There were limits on what foods and goods you could buy and the amounts you could get. Personal correspondence was strictly controlled.
And the reason why they did it was exemplified by the fact that there was a large black market in these goods that did a thriving business selling the stuff to people who didn't give a rat's butt about what the troops needed or the fact that the entire Country's freedom and liberty was endangered.
However, folks also put out a massive effort of cooperation and hard work to support the war effort too. I would dearly hope that the same could be accomplished nowadays.

 

[Verne Bunsen]

I also wonder though, is totalitarian control not the ultimate result of the system we have chosen?

I would say it is only the inevitable result of our system of government if we allow governmental control over the lives of the citizenry to grow unchecked. Restrictions increase regularly; the "success" of a session of Congress is measured by how many new laws they managed to pass. What is taken is rarely given back, and that trend does indeed lead ultimately to the police state after a nice transitional nanny state period.

Humans being what they are, can we ever really hope to enjoy the level of freedom we desire when the necessary level of maturity is essentially lacking in people?  I think we can both agree that some kind of policing and authoritarian control is needed to avoid total chaos in a society. How far do we go though?

That's the big question. And it is another can of worms entirely. If individual liberty is on one side of the coin, the other side is personal accountability, and we as a society have eroded and undermined that greatly.

However, folks also put out a massive effort of cooperation and hard work to support the war effort too. I would dearly hope that the same could be accomplished nowadays.

Good luck, these days we get into fist fights at Walmart over the last roll of toilet paper, haha!

 

[PhilHill]

I would say it is only the inevitable result of our system of government if we allow governmental control over the lives of the citizenry to grow unchecked. Restrictions increase regularly; the "success" of a session of Congress is measured by how many new laws they managed to pass. What is taken is rarely given back, and that trend does indeed lead ultimately to the police state after a nice transitional nanny state period.

I sometimes think that the best way would be to replace congress entirely every 2 or 3 yrs. That way they would always be unable to organise back into the old network and lobbyists (Something that should be illegal) wouldn't know who they can schmooze and who not.
But, good luck on achieving that.

 

[Verne Bunsen]

I sometimes think that the best way would be to replace congress entirely every 2 or 3 yrs. That way they would always be unable to organise back into the old network and lobbyists (Something that should be illegal) wouldn't know who they can schmooze and who not.
But, good luck on achieving that.

I couldn’t have said it better.
ccasion14:

 

[Rick]

Blech! Corona virus sucks.

 

[mayfly]

Blech! Corona virus sucks.

I think we can all agree on that!

 

[Verne Bunsen]

Blech! Corona virus sucks.

Agreed. Tuesday I head back to Alaska, at which time I will begin a mandatory 14 day quarantine in Anchorage before being allowed to return to my work location for an extended 4-week hitch. So that's 6-weeks away from home instead of the usual 2. At least my dad has a travel guitar to loan me, I'll have my scales down but GOOD after 14 days locked in a hotel room. If I don't go insane, that is...

 

[PhilHill]

I used to worry about going insane, then one day I realized, it's far too late.... :tard:

 

[swarfrat]

My wife likes to say I'm driving her crazy, but now I always respond with "Why drive when you can walk from here?"

 

[PhilHill]

Ahh, I see you like to live dangerously.  :cool01:

 

[Cactus Jack]

370K folks in the US have been tested. 80K have tested positive, meaning 290K, or 78% of the sample size have tested negative. Of the 80K folks who have tested positive about 1K have passed away, meaning the mortality rate is 1.25%.

Please remind, not joking, why is our country shut down again? Why are we panicked?