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Binding an L5S

Cagey said:
BlueTalon said:
Here is my question -- is it possible to put all the layers of binding together in a curve, rather than a straight line?  Will that tool work for curves?  or is there a different but similar tool meant for curves?  It seems to me that you could form the binding in a curve when you are initially putting it all together.  You could measure the length of the curves from the guitar with a string or something, so you could reverse the curve at the right place. 

The tool is only good for straight runs. You also have a time problem. The layers are laminated using acetone, which boils off pretty fast. That speed increases with temperature, and even single layers of binding material need to be heated to get pliable enough to get around curves. You'd need a form so you could heat the material, form it, then quickly weld it. Since you'd want to form it in the shape of the guitar body, the body makes a convenient form. May as well just install it one layer at a time if you're going to do that.

I did see a video where the guy made a form in the shape of the body. Basically, it was a square piece of wood larger than the body with a channel cut into it that was an outline of the body. He'd heat up the binding, fitting it into the channel as it became pliable. When done, it was all already cool and removing it from the form left a piece of binding in the shape of the guitar. Pretty neat trick, but it was a single layer binding strip. I suspect in the production shops they do a similar thing, but use plastic that's already laminated in sheets, like pickguard material. They'd simply cut off strips, fit them to a mold, then attach the resulting formed binding to bodies.

Has to be something like that, because even as inexpensive as labor is in the far east it would cost a lot to get bound bodies. But, they practically give them away. Look at this ES knockoff...

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5 layer binding front and back, as well as a bound neck and headstock. Alnico 'buckers, abalone inlays, Grover tuners, TOM bridge... $239 in the box, out the door, brand spankin' new. Can't even buy a paint job for that kind of money here.

Is that from rondo? I will never know how those people make money...

I am doing a lot of looking into binding, I want to bind my next project...
 
Yes, that's an SX guitar from Rondo.

One of my brothers recently bought a similar unit from them, but rather than the SX it's an Agile AS-1000. Ebony 'board, transparent wine red over curly maple, gold hardware. Super sharp. I think he gave $399 for that one.

I don't know how they do it, either. But, it makes you real suspicious of Gibson/Fender/PRS/et al when they price much simpler imports from the same area at three times the price.
 
Cagey said:
I'm aware of them and am sure they could satisfy, I was just hoping somebody made those parts in a non-custom inexpensive sort of way.
Well someone does, but not sure if it is a std size. I have seen Agiles with cream covers.
 
Update time! Schedule was empty for a few days, so it seemed like a good time to get a little done on this project.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I was considering moving the pickup switch to the upper forward bout, as it's done on Duo Jets, Les Pauls, and some Teles. The idea got past the consideration stage and into execution.

First, I needed switch cavity and a way to mark the center on both sides of the guitar, as the hole(s) would be drilled that way to protect the outer surface. Easy enough. Just drill the small switch mounting hole first, as it has to go all the way through, and that will automatically give me the center on the back. So, we chuck a 1/2" Forstner bit into the Drill Press of Doom, clamp Mr. L5S to the stage, and commence to drillin'.

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And here we have it. Nice and clean. Gotta love Forstner bits. Incidentally, you can't see it, but there's an Oak backup board under the body so I didn't try to drill the stage with a bit made for wood.

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Now that we have a hole in the right place, we flip the body over to make a control cavity. Pay no attention to the pencil marks; they're an artifact of a nasty brain fart. Chucked a larger Forstner in - 1 5/8" this time - and get it located. It's not real obvious in this shot, but the cavity hole is going to be a somewhat off-center from the switch mount hole to allow for wiring clearance once the switch gets mounted.

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And once again the Forstner pulls its load...

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Then, of course we need to relieve the edge of the hole so the cover can be flush-mounted. That had to be done by hand with Mean ol' Mr. Router and the Dado Bit of Despair. Didn't take any interim pictures, but here's the result...

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With the switch in place, you can see where a bit of offset for that mounting hole will come in handy. There are going to be three 1/8" thick outer-braid shielded wires soldered to those terminals, and they're not going to want to bend around much. You can also see the hole I had to drill to run those wires through. To drill that, I used a 12" long  5/16" diameter aircraft bit, and came in from the pickup cavity side.

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Stay tuned! There's more. But, the sun's shining and I gotta make some hay...


 
For our next trick, we're going to finally start binding the little rascal.

Jim_H mentioned somewhere back in this thread that in his experience it was easier to apply the binding one layer at a time. As it works out, he's both right and wrong. Y'all can probably disregard how the thread started, with making a multi-layer binding up front. I couldn't get that to work here. What happens is the binding ends up too thick, then it doesn't want to bend even after heating it up. If you do get it to bend, the laminations want to seperate, which is NFG. I imagine if you were doing something thinner, you might get away with that method, but that's not what we're doing here.

Picture taking a stack of paper sheets and trying to wrap them around a circular tube with the ends of the paper stack glued. The gradually increasing diameter of the stack means the outer pieces have to be longer than the inner pieces. If the paper were either stretchy or compressible, you might wrestle it into shape, but they're not. Same thing happens with the binding. The outer layers need to stretch or the inner layers need to compress, and they really don't want to do either of those things because of the material's physical properties and the fact that they're fastened together along their length. Naturally, the first things to go are the glue joints, but there are other problems. Net result: a hopeless mess that will never work.

So, that stack of binding I originally made looks like waste. But, I did find a use for some of it after all.

When you want to make a thicker multi-layer binding, you need a deep channel. If you want to do it one layer at a time, no matter what thickness you start with you're going to have trouble holding it tight against the body while you tape it in place and wait for the glue to set. The tape is going to be pushing at an angle, while the force you want to apply needs to be perpendicular to the attached/glued side.

So, I got out a PVC tube cutting tool, and started making a pile of little 1/4" to 1/2" spacer blocks out of the previously built-up binding. As you can see, many pieces separated at the lamination, but that was ok. As things progressed and the installed binding layers stacked up, the spacer blocks would need to get thinner anyway...

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Next step is actually glueing on the first strip. For this stage, I used something called "Weld-On #16", which is basically a combination of really nice solvents like Methyl Ethyl Ketone and Methylene Chloride mixed with some acrylic monomers to form a goop similar to Testor's Model Cement, for those of you who used to build plastic models as a kid. No Toluene, though, so you can't get high off it; you can only get cancer. At least, that's what California thinks, so try to avoid injecting 50cc of it directly into your bloodstream every 15 minutes for 10 days like they do to lab rats to prove that it's toxic.

Weld-On_Cement_sm.jpg

Basically, it melts things together, but the acrylics give it some body and strength once it re-hardens to provide a good grip on something porous and non-melty, like wood.


So, you squeeze out a thin line of the stuff and kinda smear it around so the channel back is coated. Don't go too thick - you don't really want to squeeze much of this stuff out when you press the binding into place, or it'll melt the top of the binding strip as well as the surface you're trying to attach to the body. Only do 4 or 5 inches at a time - the reactions are pretty fast. Press the binding in place, and tape it to hold.

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That's a high-tack tape commonly used for this purpose. Wicked sticky, but leaves no residue.  You can sorta see where I've used the spacer blocks to apply force more evenly.

Once you've given the stuff time to do its work (they recommend 24 hours, but I cheated a bit here and there), you can peel back the tape and do the next strip. For the subsequent binding strips, I didn't use the Weld-On goop, I painted on straight acetone with an artist's brush. Here are a few shots after successive layers of binding...

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Yeah, it's an oogy mess. But, fear not! We routed the depth of the binding channel a tad shallow so we could scrape the top of the sandwich down level with the body surface. All that molten plastic slop and strip edge variation goes away after scraping in later steps, so it looks like this...

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Scraping is done with a machined and burred piece of spring steel. I won't bore you with the details; you can read about them here.

In our next episode, we'll do something profoundly stupid!
 
Whoa i just looked at the rondo guitars, whats the scoop on these puppies? Specifically the lps? 150 bux? Wtf! More info please
 
Somehow, I managed to miss the switch access hole drilling shot earlier, so here's a setup shot that illustrates how that works...

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You can see that without the very long bit, the drill motor's chuck and body would be too close to the guitar body and the hole would have a much steeper angle to it. With the aircraft bit, you can lay it down better. There's another hole you can barely see leading in from the neck pocket that goes through the neck pickup cavity and ends up in the main control cavity, and I drilled a third one leading from the bridge pickup cavity to the neck pickup cavity. This will allow for simpler wiring, where the pickups go directly to the switch, then a single line will run from the switch to the main control cavity. Very clean, with no splices necessary.

You can also see where I plugged the stop tailpiece mounting stud holes, the original pickup switch hole, and three of the four pot holes. I then added a pot hole in a more accessible spot just below the bridge pickup. So, even though it's supposed to be an L5S, we'll have the pickup switch up top and a single volume and tone control in the lower rear. A 7/8" hole for the output jack is on the side.
 
stankybudz said:
Whoa i just looked at the rondo guitars, whats the scoop on these puppies? Specifically the lps? 150 bux? Wtf! More info please

Rondo is a distributor. They sell musical gear made in the far east, mostly S. Korea. The top of the line stuff is from Agile, with the 3000 series and up LPs being very nice pieces. I'd put them up against a Gibson LP Custom any day of the week, and probably choose the Agile. Some of them even have locking tuners and stainless frets. I've owned/seen/played several of them, and they're quite impressive.

The lower end stuff is pretty nice, but it often suffers from sub-standard pickups/wiring. You could get one of those and throw another $200 at new pickups/pots/switches/etc., but you may as well just spring for the better models and save yourself the trouble.
 
No, not directly. The pockets aren't standard sized on the models with bolt-on necks, and certainly not on the LPs, as that's a glue-on mortise & tenon neck while Warmoth's parts are all bolt-ons. Of course, anything can be modified, but there's a limit to how practical that is.
 
I was talking about the guitars on here that are bolt on. I may have to try one of these puppies out :guitarplayer2:
 
Thanks to all for your encouragement. Tomorrow, weather permitting, I'm hoping to seal it and start on the dreaded grain filling. After that, we're going to shoot the top Cadillac Green, or British Racing Green, or Forest Green, or Hunter green, or whatever name you want to use to describe dark green. The sides and back are just going to get clear-coated, so as to show off the Mahogany. No stain. Just clear coat is going to darken it up quite a bit.

Here's an earlier shot of that body that's been wiped with Naptha...

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Pretty sweet, I think. I don't see a need to improve on Mother Nature. I do wish I could get some cream colored covers for the back more easily, but it's beginning to look like I'm either going to have to make them myself or have them custom-made.
 
Cagey said:
we're going to shoot the top
Cadillac Green or
British Racing Green or
Forest Green or
Hunter green or
whatever name you want to use to describe dark green.
What about just .... Dark Green    :icon_biggrin:

:eek:  Great work on the binding Cagey  :headbang:

Looking great  :icon_thumright:
 
Thanks.

I was sorta making a funny on the color names. What kinda job must that be, coming up with the names for colors? Considering your average human is considered capable of discerning up to 10,000,000 shades of color, then you have different manufacturers who have their own ideas of what to call things. The mind boggles. Unless you're in the business, color names mean almost nothing.
 
That wouldn't surprise me, either. As if the courts aren't clogged enough with frivolous lawsuits. But, it does mean something, sometimes. Here's a short article with examples of suits filed.
 
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