warmoth stratocaster replacement neck flat vs. tiltback, single radius vs. compound radius

[FluorideInMyWater]

hipshot also has a model called Fender Directofit, drop in tuners that don't have screw holes, but have tiny tabs that look like they self mount as you tighten them up.

NEW Hipshot STAGGERED Tuners Fender® Directrofit™ Locking Hex LEFT-HANDED CHROME | eBay

<p>Hipshot® tuning machines are one of the easiest ways to get more out of your Fender® guitar. The Grip-Lock™ feature grabs the string tightly for quick re-stringing and superior tuning stability over traditional machines. A 21:1 tuning ratio makes it easy to dial in the precise pitch without...

www.ebay.com

but again, the confusion for hole size baffles me. it says on the specs picture that they are compatible for 10mm or 27/64 size holes.
i know hipshots are made in Japan, but are they an american company? i'm curious if the actual tuners are milled to 10mm or just fit 10mm holes.
10mm = .3937" . the closest hole size to that would be 13/32 = .40625.........but i think that warmoth does a compound tuning hole for gotoh (13/32-11/32)

@stratamania said he had a compound tuner hole size of 25/64" - 11/32" for his hipshot tuners that worked well.

 

[Don O]

And regarding an underappreciated benefit to non-**locking** tuners, is if you are swapping out pickups in your guitar as frequently as I am to try different tones/find the right set for that guitar, locking tuners are a pain because the locking mechanism bites deeply into the part of the string that passes through the tuner, so if you want to re-use those same string after loosening them to get access to the pickups, when you go to re-tighten those strings, the strings break at that weakened point. So you have to put on a fresh set of strings. For this reason, I prefer non-locking tuners for the guitars that I am still figuring out what pickups will end up in that guitar.

I agree with your concern, but having used locking tuners for decades the trick is to not put the string on “tight”. Leave slack such that you put 2 to 3 wraps on getting to tune. Then you can remove them a few times if necessary. BTDT.

 

[ruscio]

hipshot also has a model called Fender Directofit, drop in tuners that don't have screw holes, but have tiny tabs that look like they self mount as you tighten them up.

NEW Hipshot STAGGERED Tuners Fender® Directrofit™ Locking Hex LEFT-HANDED CHROME | eBay

<p>Hipshot® tuning machines are one of the easiest ways to get more out of your Fender® guitar. The Grip-Lock™ feature grabs the string tightly for quick re-stringing and superior tuning stability over traditional machines. A 21:1 tuning ratio makes it easy to dial in the precise pitch without...

www.ebay.com

but again, the confusion for hole size baffles me. it says on the specs picture that they are compatible for 10mm or 27/64 size holes.
i know hipshots are made in Japan, but are they an american company? i'm curious if the actual tuners are milled to 10mm or just fit 10mm holes.
10mm = .3937" . the closest hole size to that would be 13/32 = .40625.........but i think that warmoth does a compound tuning hole for gotoh (13/32-11/32)

@stratamania said he had a compound tuner hole size of 25/64" - 11/32" for his hipshot tuners that worked well.

The Directofit probably work really well to replace Fender tuners with those two pins, but you'd absolutely need to drill those holes in just the right place. The pins (or whatever they're called) are more substantial than you'd think, rounded at the tip, and there's no way they're going in w/out holes drilled. The nice thing is that those holes aren't visible once you install them, unless of course you ever decide to change to another type of tuner. Also, unless you have a nice jig or other method for getting those holes just right, it's hard to line the tuners up straight with one another. Here's the picture from the link you posted that shows the two pin holes you'll need:

 

[ruscio]

i just think the UMP is super ugly. my fender strat came with the 1 screw hole. they didn't strip. as long as you're using the correct sized Philips screwdriver and don't over bore your screw holes, they should screw in like butta'.

so you could just tell me why hipshots are recommended more than the schaller. for every article or post i read i get 20 different opinions. so it would be nice to hear your opinion.

Agreed, the UMP is pretty ugly--if you look at the back of the headstock. From any other angle, it's invisible and works great.

It probably depends what type of wood your neck shaft is made of in terms of whether you'd get away without a pilot hole. The issue is that those screws are tiny and the tops like to shear off. There's no end of threads on guitar forums about how to remove these tiny screws once the heads have come off. Like many people, I learned the hard way that precise pilot holes are needed. I've even had a head shear off when trying to remove a screw that seemed to have gone in fine, and worked fine, when I later wanted to change out the tuners.

I'm not working on commission for Hipshot, just a big fan of the UMP as a way to avoid the irreversible modification of a headstock and dealing with the smallest pilot holes and screws I've come across anyplace on an electric guitar.

A few other thoughts relevant to your Qs.

I also like Gotoh tuners a lot, the Magnum in particular, that came installed on some of my Ibanez guitars. My experience with any Gotoh products is that they're top quality, whether it's tuners, bridges, etc. They make the highest-end bridges for Ibanez (e.g., Edge, Lo-Pro Edge), they make the 510 trem bridge that's by far my favorite strat bridge, the GE1996t that's a step up from an OFR, and so much more. I don't think you can go wrong with Gotoh parts.

I can't speak to Shaller quality from personal experience, but others seem to rate them very highly. Probably a good choice here, too.

I've had staggered-height tuners with 2 or 3 different heights, and both have worked just as well. It's really the ones for the B and E strings that matter most, as that's where you'd otherwise be using a string tree. My (slight) preference is for 3 separate heights, but it has nothing to do with break angles, just aesthetics. You can see a big jump between the 3 tuners at one height and the 3 at another, but the gaps between pairs of tuners at 3 different heights are less noticeable. Here's a side view of some Hipshots with 3 heights, then Fenders with 2 heights (I know you're not considering the Fenders, but that's all I currently have with 2 heights).





Edit: Looking at this last pic, I'm shocked these were sold as a "set" of 6 tuners. They're terribly mismatched. I don't think Gotoh or Shaller is likely to do something this ugly.

 

[Scab Pickens]

i don't think you actually need to drill a hole for that.

Do yourself a favor and drill a hole for that.

... 3 different post sizes were more optimal so i'm looking at Hipshot and Schaller.

Gotoh offers 3 post lengths, as well ...

GOTOH SGS510Z-A07-MGT Locking Tuning Machine Small body/small knob - Individual

GOTOH high end SGS510Z 18:1 gear ratio compact tuning machines for inline configuration. Sold individually for custom configurations

www.philadelphialuthiertools.com

 

[stratamania]

Re: tuning stability/avoiding use of string trees, I assumed it was commonly understood that if one is using non-staggered tuners, then yes you would definitely be using string trees, at least on a non-tiltback neck design.

For tuning stability, with none locking trems the avoidance of string trees is preferred. Which forms part of the thread discussion.

 

[stratamania]

so which would be even "more optimal" of the two? i have no idea if schaller's are much better in overall quality than the hipshot...($30 difference). i guess for me the optimal or more correct "break-angle" as you say, would be most important.

Both are equally suitable. I use both Schaller or Hipshot.

The UMP plate does not have to be used with the Hipshots. It is optional.

It is better to drill the pilot holes for small screws in guitars as they are made of hardwood to avoid stripping or breaking a screw.

 

[JohnnyHardtail]

I like the Fender tuners with 2 heights. I say this because it’s the plain strings that require the largest break angle over the nut IME & IMO. If the nut ever has issues with buzz or bad tone on open strings it is most likely to happen on the 3rd, plain G string.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

Agreed, the UMP is pretty ugly--if you look at the back of the headstock. From any other angle, it's invisible and works great.

It probably depends what type of wood your neck shaft is made of in terms of whether you'd get away without a pilot hole. The issue is that those screws are tiny and the tops like to shear off. There's no end of threads on guitar forums about how to remove these tiny screws once the heads have come off. Like many people, I learned the hard way that precise pilot holes are needed. I've even had a head shear off when trying to remove a screw that seemed to have gone in fine, and worked fine, when I later wanted to change out the tuners.

I'm not working on commission for Hipshot, just a big fan of the UMP as a way to avoid the irreversible modification of a headstock and dealing with the smallest pilot holes and screws I've come across anyplace on an electric guitar.

A few other thoughts relevant to your Qs.

I also like Gotoh tuners a lot, the Magnum in particular, that came installed on some of my Ibanez guitars. My experience with any Gotoh products is that they're top quality, whether it's tuners, bridges, etc. They make the highest-end bridges for Ibanez (e.g., Edge, Lo-Pro Edge), they make the 510 trem bridge that's by far my favorite strat bridge, the GE1996t that's a step up from an OFR, and so much more. I don't think you can go wrong with Gotoh parts.

I can't speak to Shaller quality from personal experience, but others seem to rate them very highly. Probably a good choice here, too.

I've had staggered-height tuners with 2 or 3 different heights, and both have worked just as well. It's really the ones for the B and E strings that matter most, as that's where you'd otherwise be using a string tree. My (slight) preference is for 3 separate heights, but it has nothing to do with break angles, just aesthetics. You can see a big jump between the 3 tuners at one height and the 3 at another, but the gaps between pairs of tuners at 3 different heights are less noticeable. Here's a side view of some Hipshots with 3 heights, then Fenders with 2 heights (I know you're not considering the Fenders, but that's all I currently have with 2 heights).

View attachment 63417

View attachment 63418

Edit: Looking at this last pic, I'm shocked these were sold as a "set" of 6 tuners. They're terribly mismatched. I don't think Gotoh or Shaller is likely to do something this ugly.

il'm looking at your picture..........i guess i'm not seeing what you are "shocked" about. i see the tuning heads, and then what looks like staggered tuners w/ 2 different heights.....oh wait.....the 2nd pictures...........the first 3 pegs look like a different "style" than the second 3.......is that what you're referring to? which tuner's are these (pic#2)?

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

Do yourself a favor and drill a hole for that.

Yeah, i would install them, mark with a super thin punch and then use the smallest drill bit that is the size of the screw body (excluding the threads). basically, the normal method for pre-tapping any type of holes......metal, wood, plastic, or other.

Gotoh offers 3 post lengths, as well ...

GOTOH SGS510Z-A07-MGT Locking Tuning Machine Small body/small knob - Individual

GOTOH high end SGS510Z 18:1 gear ratio compact tuning machines for inline configuration. Sold individually for custom configurations

www.philadelphialuthiertools.com

yeah, those gotoh 510's are about $150 per 6 sets. a bit pricey. probably worth it, but i'd like to keep it under $100 for this project.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

The Directofit probably work really well to replace Fender tuners with those two pins, but you'd absolutely need to drill those holes in just the right place. The pins (or whatever they're called) are more substantial than you'd think, rounded at the tip, and there's no way they're going in w/out holes drilled. The nice thing is that those holes aren't visible once you install them, unless of course you ever decide to change to another type of tuner. Also, unless you have a nice jig or other method for getting those holes just right, it's hard to line the tuners up straight with one another. Here's the picture from the link you posted that shows the two pin holes you'll need:

View attachment 63416

my mistake perhaps. i got the impression that when you tighten down the tuners from the front, the "divots" on the inside of the tuners would just grab ahold of the wood and "self-tap" or "sink-in".....but i guess if you're using a super hard wood as opposed to a soft maple, then you might have to pre-drill. but honestly, if you just installed the tuners and made them semi-snug and then removed them they would leave small dimples in the wood that you could just use a a thin punch to deepen the divot holes to the size of the actual divots.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

Both are equally suitable. I use both Schaller or Hipshot.

The UMP plate does not have to be used with the Hipshots. It is optional.

It is better to drill the pilot holes for small screws in guitars as they are made of hardwood to avoid stripping or breaking a screw.

so the regular hipshot peg heights are 18/19/20mm but the the hipshot "directrofit" are "19/20/21mm
there Schaller's heights are 18/19.5/21mm
the Gotoh SG510Z'S are 18.5/20/21.5mm

so the Hipshots are slightly shorter.......so i'm guessing that increases the "break-angle"........which i'm "assuming" is better for the regular straight neck w/out string trees? i like the fact that they are 18:1 gear ratio. but they don't actually tell you what the size of the shaft part of the peg that goes through the headstock holes..... it only says "compatible with 10mm or 27/64th tuner holes"
10mm = .3937" this is where i'm still confused. is the peg part that goes though the holes 10mm (does hipshot use the metric system when producing their products?) the closest hole size to 10mm without being under 10mm would be 25/64th. which is .390625. so 10mm (.3937 shaft size) minus 25/64th (.390625" hole size) = 0.003075" of space.

OR

so they mean the part of the peg (shaft) that goes through the hole is slightly smaller than 10mm (.3937") so a hole size that is closest to 10mm would be either 25/64" or 13/32"......but that all depends on what the radius of that actual part is, which they don't list.

please see attached diagram for better understanding of my question.

 

[stratamania]

Welcome to the guitar world of imperial and metric measurement conversions and rounding.

The tuning peg itself is smaller than the part that is around a modern tuner and goes through the hole. A Schaller has a size of 10mm, and Hipshots and modern Fender types all need a comparable size tuner bore in the headstock. That means with Warmoth the closest is to use 25/64" which is 9.92mm.

You may need to use a reamer or sandpaper wrapped around a dowel or pencil to adjust the holes when fitting, especially if there is any finish that may have got into the holes.

If a manufacturer's dimensions are exact in one system such as 20mm or 0.787" or an unusual fraction, which system do you think they are using?
With Warmoth they use 25/64" which a 9.92mm for a tuner hole size, do you think they use imperial or metric drill bits?

.but that all depends on what the radius of that actual part is, which they don't list.

Tuner bore, and shaft dimensions use the diameter of the hole.
Hipshot have not put it on the diagram as they have already mentioned what size post holes 10mm or for vintage 8.5mm each set of tuners is for.

TLDR - Modern tuners, tuner bore size usually 10mm - Fender / Schaller / Hipshot /Sperzel
Vintage tuners - 11/32" or 8.5mm dependent on manufacturer.

Tuner Hole Options

warmoth.com

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

Welcome to the guitar world of imperial and metric measurement conversions and rounding.

The tuning peg itself is smaller than the part that is around a modern tuner and goes through the hole. A Schaller has a size of 10mm, and Hipshots and modern Fender types all need a comparable size tuner bore in the headstock. That means with Warmoth the closest is to use 25/64" which is 9.92mm.

You may need to use a reamer or sandpaper wrapped around a dowel or pencil to adjust the holes when fitting, especially if there is any finish that may have got into the holes.

If a manufacturer's dimensions are exact in one system such as 20mm or 0.787" or an unusual fraction, which system do you think they are using?
With Warmoth they use 25/64" which a 9.92mm for a tuner hole size, do you think they use imperial or metric drill bits?


Tuner bore, and shaft dimensions use the diameter of the hole.
Hipshot have not put it on the diagram as they have already mentioned what size post holes 10mm or for vintage 8.5mm each set of tuners is for.

TLDR - Modern tuners, tuner bore size usually 10mm - Fender / Schaller / Hipshot /Sperzel
Vintage tuners - 11/32" or 8.5mm dependent on manufacturer.

Tuner Hole Options

warmoth.com

if warmoth says they need a 10mm hole, then they must be working in metric. but warmoth is not working with metric. they are working with standard and the closes to 10mm w/out being under is. 13/32............but the closest is (as you said) 25/64th, but require a bit of a ream job. i'm not sure why warmoth doesn't get with the program and drill metric size holes (ex - 10mm)

so do you like the sizes of the hipshot posts.........slightly shorter @ 18/19/20mm?

i think i'm going to just have to buy the tuners 1st and then measure them with a micrometer when they show up. but if you say that the closest is 25/64th and i'll have to sand them a bit then i now know that going in and know what to expect.

so why did you go for a compound hole of 25/64" - 11/32" ? if the tuner needs a 10mm hole straight through then why the compound measuement? unless the tuner is partially "cone" shapped.........and ..........

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

Welcome to the guitar world of imperial and metric measurement conversions and rounding.

The tuning peg itself is smaller than the part that is around a modern tuner and goes through the hole. A Schaller has a size of 10mm, and Hipshots and modern Fender types all need a comparable size tuner bore in the headstock. That means with Warmoth the closest is to use 25/64" which is 9.92mm.

You may need to use a reamer or sandpaper wrapped around a dowel or pencil to adjust the holes when fitting, especially if there is any finish that may have got into the holes.

If a manufacturer's dimensions are exact in one system such as 20mm or 0.787" or an unusual fraction, which system do you think they are using?
With Warmoth they use 25/64" which a 9.92mm for a tuner hole size, do you think they use imperial or metric drill bits?


Tuner bore, and shaft dimensions use the diameter of the hole.
Hipshot have not put it on the diagram as they have already mentioned what size post holes 10mm or for vintage 8.5mm each set of tuners is for.

TLDR - Modern tuners, tuner bore size usually 10mm - Fender / Schaller / Hipshot /Sperzel
Vintage tuners - 11/32" or 8.5mm dependent on manufacturer.

Tuner Hole Options

warmoth.com

so do the 18/19/20mm's post have a better break-angle than the 19/20/21's?

 

[stratamania]

i think i'm going to just have to buy the tuners 1st and then measure them with a micrometer when they show up. but if you say that the closest is 25/64th and i'll have to sand them a bit then i now know that going in and know what to expect.

You don't sand the tuners but rather ream or sand the holes.

so do the 18/19/20mm's post have a better break-angle than the 19/20/21's?

For pragmatic purposes, it makes a trivial difference of no real importance. What does matter is headstock thickness versus post height, if you use a UMP, it adds effectively 1mm to the headstock thickness.

 

[aarontunes]

i don't think you actually need to drill a hole for that. i'd probably screw all the tuners on, get them lined up and straight, and then take a pointy punch and just punch a small hole in the middle of that hole. the punch hole should be enough for the screws threads to to sink their teeth into and self-thread while you screw them in. yeah, you could make a tiny drill hole that is the size of the screw minus the threads for slightly easier threading, but that is super simple and not a big deal........to me anyways. those are nice tuners but they only have 2 sizes of post sizes. 'Stratomainia' said that 3 different post sizes were more optimal so i'm looking at Hipshot and Schaller.

You absolutely, unequivocally, with 100% certainty want to drill pilot holes for your tuner screws.

Not doing so usually results in either:

• cracking your headstock.
• twisting off the top of the screw and leaving the shaft embedded in your headstock.

Either one will ruin your day.

 

[Don O]

You absolutely, unequivocally, with 100% certainty want to drill pilot holes for your tuner screws.

Not doing so usually results in either:

• cracking your headstock.
• twisting off the top of the screw and leaving the shaft embedded in your headstock.

Either one will ruin your day.

Totally agree. I use a Dremel with a bit that has blue painters tape wrapped around the bit as a depth gauge. Hard wood and tiny screws do not play well together without the Pilot hole.

 

[ruscio]

You don't sand the tuners but rather ream or sand the holes.

For pragmatic purposes, it makes a trivial difference of no real importance. What does matter is headstock thickness versus post height, if you use a UMP, it adds effectively 1mm to the headstock thickness.

Agreed all all counts. The difference of 1mm will not matter all that much. You're highly unlikely to "need" a string tree with a 19mm post but "not need" one with an 18mm post.

Also, and I'm sure this is what you meant, @stratamania , but to clarify the UMP thickness effectively brings the tuner post down by about another 1mm, further increasing break angle over the nut.

 

[Bruce Campbell]

This is interesting because I use the UMP with Hipshots on my tiltback neck, and am always trying (probably slightly OCD) to get better tuning stability - so I'm wondering if 1mm higher for a less severe break angle will help in any meaningful way. I'd have to try to know and that would involve disassembly, drilling of pilot holes, and reassembly/setup - probably better to just be ultra-detailed and meticulous on the nut. Not that it isn't also worth it to do the absolute best on it even with a reduced break angle.