warmoth stratocaster replacement neck flat vs. tiltback, single radius vs. compound radius

[rauchman]

ok, so everyone seems to concur that a 10-16 compound radius is the best way to go.
so on the tilt-back option, are you a yay, or a nay?
do you prefer locking tuners? if so which brand?

I personally like the 10-16, but everyone is different. I'd say it this way, it's a worthwhile exploration to see if you like it. I think you will

Yup, I like the Tiltback option as it gives truss rod access at the headstock

I've been using the Hipshot staggered tuners for straight headstocked and non staggered tuners for Tiltback headstock. I like them.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

I personally like the 10-16, but everyone is different. I'd say it this way, it's a worthwhile exploration to see if you like it. I think you will

Yup, I like the Tiltback option as it gives truss rod access at the headstock

I've been using the Hipshot staggered tuners for straight headstocked and non staggered tuners for Tiltback headstock. I like them.

so do you notice a difference in "tone" between the modern doube-trussrod vs the single-trussrod vintage/modern neck?

 

[rauchman]

so do you notice a difference in "tone" between the modern doube-trussrod vs the single-trussrod vintage/modern neck?

Kinda hard to say, as I don't have an exact duplicate of the Tiltback in a straight headstock.

Having said that, the other 2 "W" necks I have are Vintage / Modern 25.5" all roasted maple necks on swamp ash Tele bodies (one with a trem and one with a standard Tele bridge) vs the 24.75" roasted maple shaft w/ ebony board on a smaller Velocity mahogany body and trem (the trem is a Gotoh 510 and I changed out the block to brass, which I'm not a fan of and when I get time, will change it back to steel). If I had a gun to my head to answer this, of the necks I have, the Vintage/Moderns have more resonance and feel/sound more lively. Is this due to the single vs doubt truss rod, wood differences, scale differences, bridge differences, wood mass for the body shape.....I don't know, but I suspect all these variables play into the final outcome. The differences are more apparent when unplugged. When going through a high gain amp, the differences are noticed less.

It's very hard to generalize this as all necks, bodies and full guitars are their own entity and every part used plays into it's sound. All things being equal, I'd rather have a headstock accessed truss rod using a single truss rod, but I wouldn't turn away a Tiltback double truss rod...especially since it's the only option available for a 24 fret neck and/or a Floyd nut.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

A graphite nut and staggered locking tuners are perfectly adequate for avoiding string trees. It is also worth using some sort of lubrication in the nut.

So i found 2 options for inline, staggered, locking left-handed tuners.

#1 is a Gotoh Magnun lefties, that have 2 different sized tuning post/pegs. 18.5mm and 20mm

NEW Gotoh SG381-07 MGT 6 In-Line Set MAGNUM Locking LEFT-HANDED - CHROME | eBay

The SG381 tuning machines feature the accuracy and reliability Gotoh is famous for. They features a 16:1 gear ratio for precise, accurate tuning, and a die-cast enclosure that is permanently sealed and lubricated for years of smooth operation.

www.ebay.com

#2 are Hipshot inline staggered locking tuners, but they have 3 different sized tuning posts/pegs.....18mm, 19mm, and 20mm

NEW Hipshot 6-in-Line STAGGERED LEFT-HANDED Mini Locking Tuning Keys - CHROME | eBay

6 in line treble side tuners (left handed guitars).

www.ebay.com

so they are both locking, inline, and staggered lefties, but gotoh has 2 sized pegs and hipshot has 3.

for the purposes of going with a vintage/modern neck (non-tiltback) which one of these would be best suited?

i emailed the Gotoh vendor on ebay and he said that 3 sizes were only needed for non-locking tuners with string trees.......but i have zero idea if his information is correct (?)

was curious what you had to say about this aspect.

Thanks so very much!

A Vegatrem is a particularly good retrofit option, it is not locking but due to its design, it has eliminated many of the potential issues of more traditional vintage style tremolos.


No, adding more friction, equal or otherwise, is not eliminating friction. An even worse idea.

There is a good reason to use a string retainer bar when the guitar has a Floyd Rose locking nut, but that is an entirely different use case.

 

[stratamania]

for the purposes of going with a vintage/modern neck (non-tiltback) which one of these would be best suited?

i emailed the Gotoh vendor on ebay and he said that 3 sizes were only needed for non-locking tuners with string trees.......but i have zero idea if his information is correct (?)

You could use either. I have used in the right-handed version the Hipshots several times. What you have been told is not correct.

Here is a link to a build I did many years ago that use the Hipshots, with the three heights. They work perfectly.

Quilted Purple Strat Build

The out of the box thread with a number of nice pics can be found here. https://unofficialwarmoth.com/threads/purple-quilt-day.22444/ The very first build type shot after taking things out of the box where I did a quick test of the fit of the Hipshot locking tuners that are going on this...

unofficialwarmoth.com

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

You could use either. I have used in the right-handed version the Hipshots several times. What you have been told is not correct.

Here is a link to a build I did many years ago that use the Hipshots, with the three heights. They work perfectly.

Quilted Purple Strat Build

The out of the box thread with a number of nice pics can be found here. https://unofficialwarmoth.com/threads/purple-quilt-day.22444/ The very first build type shot after taking things out of the box where I did a quick test of the fit of the Hipshot locking tuners that are going on this...

unofficialwarmoth.com

so, is there any advantage to having 3 tuner post heights (hipshot) over 2 heigthts (gotoh) on a flat headstock with no string trees?

 

[stratamania]

so, is there any advantage to having 3 tuner post heights (hipshot) over 2 heigthts (gotoh) on a flat headstock with no string trees?

A slight advantage is that it creates a more consistent break angle over the nut for the strings. That said, I also have necks with two staggered heights that also work without string trees. Three tuner post heights are slightly more optimum.

 

[Floyd_Argus]

ahh ok! actually.....bummer, it's only for 43mm and only for right-handers. i'm a lefty.
So if i use a graphite nute and staggered locking tuners is that enough to avoid having to use string trees?
i can install roller saddles on my Tremelo....maybe there is a benefit to that.
someone pointed out the vega-trem tremelo.........appears to be locking

Amazon.com

could you use a string-retainer-bar instead of string trees? look like it would provide a friction point equally across all 6 strings at once....?

Vega Trem is NOT a locking tremolo design. Instead, it's a non-locking tremolo that has the larger performance range that a locking tremolo provides over older design non-locking tremolos.

 

[Floyd_Argus]

man, as if i'm not having a tough enough time, now trying to find good 6-inline staggered locking tuners in LEFT HANDED is a bit of a challenge....ok a real challenge.

on the staggered, is it better to get 3 different sized posts or does 2 do the job.......as far as eliminating the string trees is concerned.?

The underappreciated benefit of non-staggered tuners is that when one of the tuners breaks and you need to replace that one tuner, (yes, tuners do occasionally break), it is much easier to source a single non-staggered tuner that matches the other tuners you have installed, than it is to source a single tuner that is a staggered design and that matches your other tuners. You might have to order a whole new set of staggered tuners just to get a match of what you already have installed.

 

[stratamania]

The underappreciated benefit of non-staggered tuners is that when one of the tuners breaks

Though that is not a benefit for tuning stability and avoiding the use of string trees.

You might have to order a whole new set of staggered tuners just to get a match of what you already have installed.

Good tuners, such as Hipshots and Schaller are readily available as single tuners in a size required.

 

[Floyd_Argus]

Though that is not a benefit for tuning stability and avoiding the use of string trees.



Good tuners, such as Hipshots and Schaller are readily available as single tuners in a size required.

Re: tuning stability/avoiding use of string trees, I assumed it was commonly understood that if one is using non-staggered tuners, then yes you would definitely be using string trees, at least on a non-tiltback neck design.

 

[ruscio]

Either the Hipshot or the Gotoh should work really well, they're both high-quality and will allow you to avoid string trees. What tips the scales in favor of Hipshot for me is the universal mounting plate (UMP) that allows you to avoid drilling the small guide holes to mount the tuners. Not only is extra drilling a nuisance, and irreversible, but you have to be careful to line up the tuners perfectly straight. The UMP requires no drilling, is 100% reversible, and you can very easily get perfect alignment. Highly recommended.

 

[Floyd_Argus]

The underappreciated benefit of non-staggered tuners is that when one of the tuners breaks and you need to replace that one tuner, (yes, tuners do occasionally break), it is much easier to source a single non-staggered tuner that matches the other tuners you have installed, than it is to source a single tuner that is a staggered design and that matches your other tuners. You might have to order a whole new set of staggered tuners just to get a match of what you already have installed.

And regarding an underappreciated benefit to non-**locking** tuners, is if you are swapping out pickups in your guitar as frequently as I am to try different tones/find the right set for that guitar, locking tuners are a pain because the locking mechanism bites deeply into the part of the string that passes through the tuner, so if you want to re-use those same string after loosening them to get access to the pickups, when you go to re-tighten those strings, the strings break at that weakened point. So you have to put on a fresh set of strings. For this reason, I prefer non-locking tuners for the guitars that I am still figuring out what pickups will end up in that guitar.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

Either the Hipshot or the Gotoh should work really well, they're both high-quality and will allow you to avoid string trees. What tips the scales in favor of Hipshot for me is the universal mounting plate (UMP) that allows you to avoid drilling the small guide holes to mount the tuners. Not only is extra drilling a nuisance, and irreversible, but you have to be careful to line up the tuners perfectly straight. The UMP requires no drilling, is 100% reversible, and you can very easily get perfect alignment. Highly recommended.

i'm getting a new guitar neck (warmoth), so i'll have the holes drilled for the tuners i decide to get, so i don't need a universal mounting plate.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

A slight advantage is that it creates a more consistent break angle over the nut for the strings. That said, I also have necks with two staggered heights that also work without string trees. Three tuner post heights are slightly more optimum.

so my choices are hipshots with post heights of 18, 19, & 20mm pegs

NEW Hipshot 6-in-Line STAGGERED LEFT-HANDED Mini Locking Tuning Keys - CHROME | eBay

6 in line treble side tuners (left handed guitars).

www.ebay.com

OR
schaller's with 18, 19.5, and 21mm pegs.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004MN9DAY/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_9?smid=A3TO12EC75KEMT&psc=1

so which would be even "more optimal" of the two? i have no idea if schaller's are much better in overall quality than the hipshot...($30 difference). i guess for me the optimal or more correct "break-angle" as you say, would be most important.

thanks Stratomania, for your continued guidance.
i did check out that custom build you sent a link to. awesome guitar. nice job!!!

 

[ruscio]

i'm getting a new guitar neck (warmoth), so i'll have the holes drilled for the tuners i decide to get, so i don't need a universal mounting plate.

I understand, but I’m not referring to the hole the tuner goes through. I mean the little guide hole along side of it where a tiny screw goes to orient each of the tuning machines. The universal mounting plate eliminates the need to use the second, smaller series of holes and the little screws that just love to break with much torque.

 

[ruscio]

I should have included a picture like this. I was talking about the hole off to the side of the tuner (lower left in pic below), through which goes a tiny mounting screw:

 

[teleme01]

I concur with @ruscio , tiny screws with easy to strip heads, the universal mounting plate, ump, solves the small screws problem, although you may want to bypass the advice in order to learn why hipshot is highly recommended.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

I should have included a picture like this. I was talking about the hole off to the side of the tuner (lower left in pic below), through which goes a tiny mounting screw:

View attachment 63414

i don't think you actually need to drill a hole for that. i'd probably screw all the tuners on, get them lined up and straight, and then take a pointy punch and just punch a small hole in the middle of that hole. the punch hole should be enough for the screws threads to to sink their teeth into and self-thread while you screw them in. yeah, you could make a tiny drill hole that is the size of the screw minus the threads for slightly easier threading, but that is super simple and not a big deal........to me anyways. those are nice tuners but they only have 2 sizes of post sizes. 'Stratomainia' said that 3 different post sizes were more optimal so i'm looking at Hipshot and Schaller.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

I concur with @ruscio , tiny screws with easy to strip heads, the universal mounting plate, ump, solves the small screws problem, although you may want to bypass the advice in order to learn why hipshot is highly recommended.

i just think the UMP is super ugly. my fender strat came with the 1 screw hole. they didn't strip. as long as you're using the correct sized Philips screwdriver and don't over bore your screw holes, they should screw in like butta'.

so you could just tell me why hipshots are recommended more than the schaller. for every article or post i read i get 20 different opinions. so it would be nice to hear your opinion.