So apparently Gibson has made some changes in 2015

[jay4321]

A general 29% price increase is the first thing. 

-The 2015 Les Paul Standard now sells for $3,760 (MSRP is over $6k).
-The min-E tune automatic tuning thing has been renamed G-Force and seems to be on just about all 2015 models.
-A new zero-fret brass nut on just about all models.
-The headstock logo reads "Les Paul 100" in a curved style, that I suspect people will not be pleased with.

I went into a Philly shop this week completely unaware of any of this so I'm probably the last to know. I've had my eye out for a good 2014 Wine Red signature to go on sale. I'd played one I loved but it was gone before I snagged it and so far three more I've found weren't quite as good.

Not usually the type to buy a new Gibby at all, just really liked one I saw and it happened that the first one I tried in shop was fantastic. And I guess I'm the rare bird who likes the tuning system idea as right now I have a bunch of guitars that are tuned differently. I don't know that I quite like it at $2,000 necessarily but figured I could do better.

So there I am in the shop and I get the pitch to check out the new ones. So 2015's are already out? Okay I'll try out WHAAAATTTTTT

Now let me say first that I'm not a wealthy man, but I'm not exactly a starving 20-year-old kid either. I've spent if not thrown away more money on gear than many people do on cars. A $2,000 anything is still an exceptionally tough sell but it's possible for something really blows me away (more so if it's likely to hold its value and can be versatile, the 12 guitar thing isn't working for me).

But I have to tell you that when I saw the MSRP for the new LP Standard I honestly thought it was a mistake. My first reaction was that I didn't even want to touch it. But I did try two out.

Honestly, they weren't bad and set up pretty well. Sounded fine and both perfectly functional Les Pauls I imagine most people would be satisfied with. The nut worked although I got the feel that they were a little bright, but that could be strings or any number of other things. I'd say they were pretty good guitars. I can say that I didn't care for the 10-16" compound radius, as with Warmoth necks I've shifted away from those as seem to be happiest with 12 ish at the upper frets (personal taste).

But then at nearly $4k, I don't know that's there's a factory guitar that you could sell me and I imagine lots of other people. It they wanted to go this route it seems like maybe implementing these changes over 3 years would make more sense.

For my part, when you're talking $3,700 for a guitar you're in the range of having something completely hand-built for you. And I don't mean a Warmoth type deal but some luthier cutting you a custom design and all, built to whatever specs you like. I floated a carved top design by someone and we we're in the $3,800 - $4,200 range and that was with hardware and paint and all, with some really peculiar things in the design and accounting for a fboard with custom cut inlays. I'm not sure that will happen but it wouldn't be a close decision between that and a Gibson at the same price.

And that's not even bringing up the used market for Gibsons, the 2014 stock still around, and so on.

I haven't read too much yet on other people's opinions, but I wonder what the business plan is. I don't have their financials or market info but it's hard to imagine that their bottom line increases by doing this. And I find it really hard to believe that their target market will look that favorably on some of these somewhat drastic design changes.

 

[jay4321]

I looked around for a thread on this already, if there is one (or if one was closed for stupidity) go ahead and lock this up.

 

[swarfrat]

No, Gibson has not yet closed for stupidity, but it can't be long off now

 

[SustainerPlayer]

No, Gibson has not yet closed for stupidity, but it can't be long off now

 

[Hbom]

Can't say I've been impressed with much of the Gibson line for the past few years.
But one thing is apparent.
If you want a 2015 LP, wait until the fall of '15, every GC in the country will be giving huge discounts on their unsold stock.
And from every thing I'm hearing about the '15s there should be a lot of them around @ 20-30% off.  :sad:

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

The sad thing is, Gibson thinks that just because they deem these guitars to be worth $4-6k in the marketplace, that it should be so.

I can't tell you how many times I've walked into Guitarget, and grab one of these models, just to find that they don't play any better than the $500 Epi's that are just a few feet away.  In my mind, a guitar with a $4-6k price tag on it should play like a $4-6k guitar, including some of the most custom pro shop setup as possible.  It's a tragedy that half of them on the wall have old dead strings & sweat & grime on them.  Most of this would fall on the store as far as maintaining them, re-stringing, etc, but the setup can take place at the factory.

 

[MikeW]

... I can't tell you how many times I've walked into Guitarget, and grab one of these models, just to find that they don't play any better than the $500 Epi's that are just a few feet away.  In my mind, a guitar with a $4-6k price tag on it should play like a $4-6k guitar, including some of the most custom pro shop setup as possible.  ...

THIS! I can't count the number of times I've gone into GC and pulled down a Les Paul and found that the Epiphone on the lower rack is not only a better deal, but plays and sounds remarkably better. I'm completely baffled at how Gibson stays in business at all, to be honest.

And then I browse the Warmoth Showcase and see that I could build two LP-style guitars for not much more than buying one Gibson of questionable quality. I just shake my head. Things that make you go WTF?

 

[musicispeace]

My brother was a Gibson guy and I grew up exposed to that but I am so Not Gibson at this point it approaches a level of militancy. When I picked up the guitar the first round in my life I used to feel I was skulking along with second best with my Ibanez solid body but now I realize it was probably a superior guitar to most Les Pauls even back then. Now I am smitten with the partscaster route as it is practiced based on the Fender platform. I could not be happier. If I was even entertaining the idea of laying out 4 to 5 grand on a guitar I can assure you I'd be talking to a luthier. What burns me up is when some young player tells me how they saved up for two years or four years to pay "Guitarget" an obscene amount of money for a Gibson. Even the guy at Sweetwater I order from who has like 20 guitars told me one day he would buy and Epiphone at this point even if he readily had the budget for a Gibson.

 

[riverbluff]

I was planning on buying a new Les Paul as my retirement present and I stopped into my local Guitar Center to have a look.  I looked at the new 2015 models and I do like the idea of the brass zero nut and the titanium bridge saddles, but I didn't like the auto tune feature or the gold Les Paul 100 on the head stock.  They had a couple 2014s still on the wall and I ended up buying an absolutely fabulous 2014 Les Paul Traditional in Honey Burst.  I was really impressed with the Traditional for several reasons:

1.  No weight relief!  I tried a couple other 2014s with the weight relief and they just felt weird to me.  I have an old 88 Les Paul Studio model and I base the weight off of that for a Les Paul.  I just don't like a light guitar.

2.  The '59 neck profile!  My favorite...My first Warmoth LP has a 59 roundback profile and the 2 are very similar.

3.  The '59 Tribute pickups!  Great vintage sound plugged straight into a Marshall JCM 800.  Best signal path ever!

4.  Got a great deal on it!  Never hurts to save a few $$$

I have always been a fan of Gibson and couldn't be happier with the two I own or the countless ones I have played.  I guess I'm in the minority but I really haven't come across any issues with the Gibson's I've been lucky enough to play.  Not a big fan of the price, but that can be said for anything related to the hobbies we have.  Just like anything else there is the bargain basement pricing and then there is the penthouse price.  It all comes down to what we are willing to pay and what we are happy with.  Gibson has been around for a long time and they have kept the same pricing model for well over the last 30 year (that I can remember) and they are still making and selling guitars.

 

[alterbridgefan]

My question is why?? I could get a custom, fanned fret, 8 stringed guitar with any number of wood combinations for around $400... I can't imagine paying that sort of money for something that's not EXACTLY what I want.

That said, I'd sooner spend roughly $1000 on a guitar and spend the rest on other gear.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I paid right at $2500 for my TFS6 18 years ago and it's been my "go to" for everything ever since.
Even if I found the best guitar on the rack in any retail store, because my tastes are varied, I had characterstics from several guitars that I wanted incorporated all into one, along with my own proprietary body & headstock shape.

Warmoth is the best next alternative to anyone wishing to achieve the same results, and with this in play, I can't see how Gibson is keeping the lights on.  There can't be that many well paid musicians realistically forking out that much dough to do so, unless the few that they do sell pays for it, and they're just getting greedy with the rest of production to try to get richer.  Other than that, I can't imagine Jeff Bridges, Keifer Sutherland, & Steven Seagall are buying enough for their collections to keep Gibby in biz.

 

[riverbluff]

True, but its like anything else, there are tons of people that will buy the brand they like but it will never leave there house. 

People that play out tend to think that they are the musicians and forget about all the other folks that just might enjoy plucking the strings now and again just for self satisfaction.  There are lot of folks with disposable income that will not hesitate to spend several thousand on what they want.  Look at Harley Davidson...  There really isn't a bad brand name motorcycle out there and there are plenty that are cheaper then Harley, but you will still have the executive types that will pay 20 to 30K for a bike that gets about 1000 miles put on it in a year.  The same is true for guitars.

Gibson must be doing something right.  Sure, they have some issues at times with quality, the same as any manufacturing company does.  But they still have a great reputation and they still make a good product.  Their in it to make money, the same as Warmoth, Fender, Taylor, Gretch, etc... is and they price their product at a price that people will pay for it. 

Both of my Gibson Les Pauls are great guitars and I don't regret buying either one.  The Studio has 1000s of hours on it and has been a work horse back during my Pub Circuit days in England and my new Traditional is flawless.  My Warmoth LPs are great to and with the selections I put on them they ring up to about the same price as my Traditional.

 

[Re-Pete]

Most worrying thing about the 2015 Gibsons is the lack of opting out.

That G-Force tune device at the back of the headstock is no good to me. I'd prefer it not on a guitar thank you. But a model I'd might have some interest in has it as standard, and unless you go into Traditional or Historic/Custom stuff you can't get away from it. So if I buy the model I might want (hypothetically) can I remove the tuning device? Looks pretty much integral to the headstock to me?

Then there's the new nut/zero fret thingy. Of all the things that came out of the 1970s crazes with guitars was not to mess with the basics of a guitar. Brass nuts, zero frets, exotic material used for nut material - all can affect the tone you get. Plenty a BC Rich, Yamaha, Ibanez guitar from the 1970s sounded a hell of a lot better when players got their repairer to rip out the chunky brass nut and put in a standard old fashioned bone one! Conversely plenty of older guitars got ruined by players thinking a brass nut was the way to go. Plenty still have memories of that era and for Gibson to put in a new styled nut, well, it's playing with fire in my books. Some won't notice the difference, some will, some will like the difference and some will hate it. And again I don't see a way of opting out if buying new from a retailer.

 

[riverbluff]

I think the only way to get rid if the auto tuner stuff would be to buy all new tuners. But not sure what it will look like with the electronics bok removed. 

The nice thing about the new nut is it is completely adjustable.

 

[Strat Avenger]

What? 'You mean Gibson's prices weren't high enough already???

 

[Updown]

So if I buy the model I might want (hypothetically) can I remove the tuning device?

Yep can remove it.  :icon_thumright:

Could then sell it.

Do this in reverse  :icon_biggrin:
http://tronical-components.com/installation/

 

[bagman67]

I played one of the new SG's at a Guitarget last night.  The pickups were so high I couldn't dial in a good tone on the amp.  If I'd had a screwdriver with me I'd have fixed it, pimply-faced teenage sales drone be damned.  Might have been a good guitar otherwise, but how would I know?


Also, the tuning technology got in my way.  If I'd known how to use the machinery, I'm sure it would have been a non-issue, but I just wanted to adjust one string.


Thing is, I really like the cherry red SG with P90's otherwise - this was just a really annoying execution of the concept.

 

[Wolfie351]

There can't be that many well paid musicians realistically forking out that much dough to do so

Three words, income...tax...deduction.  And, any pro musician is going to that store 2 or 3 times a week and knows someone there who will just charge them a couple hundred over invoice minus all the Gibson kickbacks, sales and promotion allowances.  When all is said and done, I'd say that Les Paul with a $6000 msrp actually costs $1500-1600 out of pocket to someone who is in the music biz and not just a weekend warrior.

 

[Prometheus]

Poor Gibson. Always getting picked on for tryin' to make a buck. Hah !  :laughing8:  But really, the major guitar manufacturers (all of 'em) are kinda caught between a rock and a hard place.

On the one hand, they are pressed by the need to always offer something new. This is an increasing pressure, as the collective consumer mindset is increasingly programmed towards "innovation", "improvement", and newer, bigger, better, more features, more bells, more whistles, version 2.0, size XXXL, fewer calories, smaller, lighter, etc, ad infinitum. I mean, why buy this year's guitar if it's just the same as last year's guitar that you already have? Because it's dirty? No, because it's got something the current guitar doesn't have. So they have to keep trying new things.

They've already all tapped into the "vintage reissue" thing, where this year's new thing is the old thing from 20+ years ago. Now you can get a new old thing! (or is that an old new thing?). And reliced gits too, so you don't even have to wear it out yourself. So they've already exhausted (to some degree) the "everything old is new again" route. At least reissues are no longer innovations.

So this year Gibson goes for auto-tuners. Some people will go "holy cow, that's EXACTLY what I need!". And others will say "OMG, how fast can I strip that thingamabob offa there?".

Which brings us to the other hand. Guitar makers are pressured the other way by the traditionalists. Which to varying degrees includes most of us. We long for instruments that we've had some historical connection with. Maybe the first one you played. Maybe the one your hero played. And maybe, because of that wonderful selective memory we have, because "those old guitars from 19XX just sounded waayyy better". All valid personal reasons. And that means that we DON'T want anything new.

And on the third hand (huh? no, wait... what??). How much different can they make a guitar? I mean, the essential technology and design have been relatively unchanged for decades. Sure, you can change nut material or string spacing. So long as it only makes a minute difference. You can change tuners. Hmmm, maybe more stable, but really not a heckofa lot of difference. Bridge designs, well, new ones show up annually, but anything more than a whisker different than the ancient designs get a marginal market share (most that sell better are simply manufactured better). But they still all work 97.74% the same as the old ones. But they just can't change the design so that it would make an obvious difference in the sound.

If people had the same buying philosophy for cars, we'd still all be buying things that looked like Model As. This year available in Vintage Midnight Black!!! This year with nickel instead of chrome! (next year with chrome instead of nickel). Plusher upholstery! Steering wheel of bakelite instead of wood. Tires 1/4" wider. But if you change that body, or that engine, in any way that makes it actually different than the original design, then nobody will consider you a serious motorist. Maybe a heretic. But not a "real drivah".

So whaddaya gonna do? You can use carbon fiber, or make it outa aluminum or acrylic. And sell dozens instead of thousands. But you can sub brass for steel. Or you can rename old wiring circuits with new names. Or use a zero fret or not. Little things. That won't change the sound or feel or performance substantively.

So that's what they do. This year's "fabulously different gotta-have-it" feature is a tuning robot. And next year's will be "a return to the traditional player's guitar".... with standard machine heads. So they can have something "different" each year. And if you really "need" a new LP this year, you'll buy it anyway and tear it off.

Of course you realize that they will have an army of consultants and MBAs who've said "Look, our focus groups say that if you add the doohickies, your revenues may drop by 30%. So raise the price 30%. That'll additionally lure in more buyers who think higher price equals better product, and more custom shop orders, and your actual revenues will increase for the year."

 

[Prometheus]

Oh, by the way. A standard marketing move is to introduce a new model with a new feature, and raise the price to justify its addition. And if/when it bombs, then remove it from the next year's model.... but leave the price where it is, because that's become the new watermark. Way smoother than hiking your prices "just because" and having a rebellion on your hands.