Schaller Locking Tuners - Can I still get some wind up in this?

[McGuyver]

So I know you're "supposed" to just pull the string through, tighten the locking nut on the tuner, and then tune up, cut the string.  Bam you're done.

But I was wondering if it's okay to still wind the strings as if they weren't locking tuners.  Would I give them some wind, and then lock them once the wind starts to get tight?  I wasn't really sure how to give the string extra slack, before winding, tighten the lock, and then wind; didn't make sense to me.  I can't really see how this would hurt the tuning peg, but I'm not exactly trying to mess up my pretty new Warmoth either.

Halp!  :sad1:

 

[Updown]

But I was wondering if it's okay to still wind the strings as if they weren't locking tuners. 

:icon_scratch: ... why ?

Are you just trying to wind us up  :icon_biggrin:

:dontknow:  I don't really understand why you want to wind the strings around a locking tuner post.
Please explain more ........ 

 

[Steve_Karl]

There's no reason to do any winds and I suspect it would be less stable at holding tuning if you did.

 

[swarfrat]

Its not only unneccessary, its missing the sole purpose for which locking tuners exist.

You do want 180 to less than 360 degrees of wrap. The locking pin should not be trying to hold tension at pitch. It's just to keep the string from slipping while you get wound up. You shouldn't have ANY string on string rubbing/wrapping though.

 

[McGuyver]

Its not only unneccessary, its missing the sole purpose for which locking tuners exist.

You do want 180 to less than 360 degrees of wrap. The locking pin should not be trying to hold tension at pitch. It's just to keep the string from slipping while you get wound up. You shouldn't have ANY string on string rubbing/wrapping though.

How would having any degrees of wrap cause any physical differences in the tuner than if it wasn't wrapped at all?  The tuner is locking a tension in, is it not?  If the tuner is locking a tension in, then if anything the very small increase in tension should be picked up just as well as if there were less tension from using thinner strings, correct?  I just don't see how doing what guitar players have been doing for over 300 years, with these locking tuners, is "so wrong".

Not "winding" anyone up, looking for legitimate information as to why or how this would actually harm anything.

 

[swarfrat]

You don't want the tiny locking pin with its tiny diameter and relatively sharp edges (compared to the barrel of the tuner) to hold the entire tangential force of the string. It's really only to keep things from slipping through the hole.

Say you have not only gorilla fingers but a good ear too, and you can pull the string to pitch with your fingers, straight throug the hole and  lock the pin without any wrap. This is worst case. The locking pin is putting all its pincher hold on the string's core.

You want the barrel to do all your pulling for you, and you want it to use its geometry skills, rather than relying on friction or clamping.  359 degrees is like ideal, but you absolutely don't want any string over string wrap.

 

[sixstringsamurai]

See this is one of those grey areas where everyone will tell you something A lil different.
Half to 3/4 of a turn is MORE than sufficient.

 

[McGuyver]

You don't want the tiny locking pin with its tiny diameter and relatively sharp edges (compared to the barrel of the tuner) to hold the entire tangential force of the string. It's really only to keep things from slipping through the hole.

Say you have not only gorilla fingers but a good ear too, and you can pull the string to pitch with your fingers, straight throug the hole and  lock the pin without any wrap. This is worst case. The locking pin is putting all its pincher hold on the string's core.

You want the barrel to do all your pulling for you, and you want it to use its geometry skills, rather than relying on friction or clamping.  359 degrees is like ideal, but you absolutely don't want any string over string wrap.

I'm not sure I understand.  How is the locking pin applying pressure or force to the string against anything other than the core of the string, whether it's wound or not?  I can see why pulling the string to pitch and then tightening the lock would be bad, since all of the pressure and tension is from the lock and not the tuner itself.  But I'm still not understanding how a wind or two on the tuning barrel, obtaining the same tension as I would have by not winding before locking and tuning the string up, changes where the locking pin is doing its work.

I don't see how the locking pin isn't holding the force of the string in any scenario.  If it wasn't holding the force of the string how would it be "locking" and maintaining tuning?

See this is one of those grey areas where everyone will tell you something A lil different.
Half to 3/4 of a turn is MORE than sufficient.

I thought the same thing.  However, this guy's guitar stays in tune pretty well, and uses the same Schaller locking tuners.

Which is why I ask.  I can't honestly see Trey Anastasio having his guitar strung up in an "incorrect" fashion, especially one that would damage any one of those beautiful guitars.  Which is why I'm posting here.

 

[sixstringsamurai]

I'ma Make this reeeeeally easy....

PULL STRING THROUGH, LEAVE A LIL SLACK SO YOU HAVE 1/2 to 3/4 OF A TURN AROUND POST.
GET OFF FORUM, GO PLAY GUITAR.

 

[McGuyver]

I'ma Make this reeeeeally easy....

PULL STRING THROUGH, LEAVE A LIL SLACK SO YOU HAVE 1/2 to 3/4 OF A TURN AROUND POST.
GET OFF FORUM, GO PLAY GUITAR.

HEY COOL, I DEFINITELY COULDN'T READ IT BEFORE, BUT NOW THAT YOU'VE USED CAPS AND COMPLETELY REPEATED YOURSELF, YOUR RESPONSE SUDDENLY MAKES NO MORE SENSE THAN BEFORE.  AMAZING!

:hello2: :hello2: :hello2: :hello2:

Sorry, I thought this forum could be of more help than the trolls of every other music forum.  sixstringsamurai doesn't bode well for these forums.

 

[swarfrat]

??????

Maybe my wife is right that nobody understands me.
:dontknow:

 

[McGuyver]

??????

Maybe my wife is right that nobody understands me.
:dontknow:

Maybe you could just try explaining your take on physics.  Because to me, those physics don't make any sense, sorry.  You say that with winding the lock is putting too much pressure or force on the string, the lock is only to keep it from slipping through the hole. 

However, the lock can't prevent it from slipping through the whole without applying pressure or force on the string, and regardless of winds, it's got pressure applied at the point of crimp.  How it applies force or pressure any differently with winding vs no winding, is what I don't understand, and what I'd like for you to explain, if you can.

 

[sixstringsamurai]

??????

Maybe my wife is right that nobody understands me.
:dontknow:

I understood you just fine...


So just do WTH you want then...
If you have already made up your mind, why ask for advice....?

:doh:

 

[McGuyver]

??????

Maybe my wife is right that nobody understands me.
:dontknow:

I understood you just fine...


So just do WTH you want then...
If you have already made up your mind, why ask for advice....?

:doh:

Perhaps you'd like to go back to harmony-central to do your trolling?  I'm looking for advice from someone who knows what they are talking about, not someone talking out of their ass and repeating themselves like an ass, like yourself.  Swarfrat is talking about physics, which is what I was looking for, however I'm not understanding how the physics are different in each case.  Which no one can seem to explain.

So why are you still posting "if you've made your mind up" just to troll the thread?


I'm not trying to be rude, but if you can't explain how it's worse, why, or why not winding is better and how, then don't fudging respond!

 

[Cagey]

The problem with putting wraps on the post is that they loosen and tighten in unpredictable ways, which has detrimental effects on your tuning. That's why they came up with locking tuners in the first place - to get rid of the wraps. Some people condone a certain degree of wrapping, say 180° ± 90° but, it doesn't really make any difference. What you're trying to accomplish is the reduction of friction, so less is more. Contrary to the amount of bloodletting strings have caused over the years, they're not really under that much tension. Figure an average of about 15 pounds. So, the little pin (or whatever) used to lock the string isn't working as hard as you might imagine.

As for your hero who puts lotsa wraps on lockers, that's just him being stupid. Famous != smart.

 

[McGuyver]

The problem with putting wraps on the post is that they loosen and tighten in unpredictable ways, which has detrimental effects on your tuning. That's why they came up with locking tuners in the first place - to get rid of the wraps. Some people condone a certain degree of wrapping, say 180° ± 90° but, it doesn't really make any difference. What you're trying to accomplish is the reduction of friction, so less is more. Contrary to the amount of bloodletting strings have caused over the years, they're not really under that much tension. Figure an average of about 15 pounds. So, the little pin (or whatever) used to lock the string isn't working as hard as you might imagine.

As for your hero who puts lotsa wraps on lockers, that's just him being stupid. Famous != smart.

Thank you Cagey, for actual information.  This is what I was looking for.  As for my hero, I'd be willing to bet that old habits die hard, which is probably why there are luthiers who have been playing for over 50 years that still wind strings with locking tuners.  Which is more-so why I asked, I suppose you think those guys are all stupid also?  Clearly I came onto these forums with doe-eyed ignorance.

ccasion14:

 

[sixstringsamurai]

As for your hero who puts lotsa wraps on lockers, that's just him being stupid.

:laughing7:

 

[McGuyver]

As for your hero who puts lotsa wraps on lockers, that's just him being stupid.

:laughing7:

:icon_thumright:

 

[Wyliee]

McGuyver and Sixstringsamurai:  behave and be nice or go to your rooms.

 

[McGuyver]

I'm not trolling any of his posts or threads.  I came here looking for information.

If he wants to do that he can take it to harmony-suck-central.