Replacement neck questions for fender strat: Modern tiltback? radius? locking tuners?

[FluorideInMyWater]

None, really it is just a different construction method. See below.



See below.

With a none locking tremolo system, the point is to reduce all points of friction as much as possible. Effectively, anywhere that a string could not return to the same place after tremolo use will change its pitch. This is factual due to physics.
See below.


Indeed, the point also requires the elimination of string trees, as they introduce additional points of friction and changes of angle to the strings. If a string tree is used, it would have to be well lubricated.

A very well-cut nut and set up guitar is needed also. If the nut is not correct, it can also produce friction, or cause citar like sounds, and various other non desired elements such as the break point of the string not being at the leading edge and throwing intonation out.

All string trees do is put an additional break angle on the string, equivalent or similar to what a tilt back headstock gives. This can hide the effects of a badly cut nut and is a large part of why factories use them. But they do nothing to help the tuning stability with a none locking system.

so, is there a locking tremelo system that is compatible with my fender body out of the box? i know i'd have to chizel out some wood to get a floyd rose to fit in.....but are there other locking tremelos that fit in the classic style vintage bridge slot/cut-out?

 

[stratamania]

i don't understand though why you don't need string trees on a tilt-back but are necessary on a straight neck. if the nut is your point of resistance/stress between the bridge and tuners they why are the string tress necessary.......?

String trees are added to some straight headstocks to create a break angle which is naturally created by a tilt back headstock.

Another way of doing increasing break angle without string trees on a straight headstock is by using staggered tuners. Usually staggered locking tuners.

So you're talking about a non-locking tremelo system........which i'm assuming i don't have.

That is what you have.

but you said there was no benefits to a tilt-back headstock. seems by what you said that the benefit is reducing the # of friction points, which according to what you said is a good thing.

Nope, the straighter the string pull the less likelihood of friction and angles reducing tuning stability.

would non-locking turners be considered stress points due to the fact that the strings loosen and re-seat on the post whenever you use the whammy bar?

Not stress, but they are an area where if the strings loosen and re-seat differently that can reduce tuning stability.

At this point, I am beginning to wonder if these questions are genuine.

 

[stratamania]

Interesting. So it's the nut surface, that I guess is wider for a tiltback setup. More surface area contact, causing more friction?

No, it is the break angle, which applies more tension to the strings passing over the nut. The wider nut would also create more friction to a string passing through it, but that can be reduced by how the nut slots are cut.

Most tilted headstocks have wider nuts compared to a Fender style nut due to the shelf they sit on and often the truss rod nut design etc that needs to be considered.

 

[rauchman]

Great discussion, and thanks for the info....

My last build was the guitar below using a Tiltback Strat headstock. A local luthier crafted a delrin nut for the neck, but warned that while using what he thought was the optimal nut material for tuning stability, it wouldn't be the "best" tuning stability. The neck originally came with the Graphtech nut.

The guitar has a Gotoh 510 2pt narrow string spaced bridge. My impression is that the tuning stability is "ok". When I put some nut lube on it, it's better.

I would have thought the tiltback would be superior since all the stings have a common break angle without the need for string trees. I wonder if a tiltback, with a lighter angle for the tiltback, would be optimal? It would seem to rectify the issue Stratamania spoke of, while providing a string tree'less string path. I think some Ibanez models have the lighter angled tiltback.

Regarding a straight headstock. I've been lucky that the Warmoth Tele Hybrid, using Hipshot staggered tuners, LSR nut and Wilkinson VS100 bridge, functions well without the need for string trees. By the way, of any non locking trem guitar I have, this guitar holds the best tuning. The 1st W I built was a Tele. While it has a standard Tele bridge, even with the same Hipshot staggered tuners set, it needed a string tree for the high E string.

 

[aarontunes]

I wonder if a tiltback, with a lighter angle for the tiltback, would be optimal? It would seem to rectify the issue Stratamania spoke of, while providing a string tree'less string path.

A young man named Paul Reed Smith wondered the same thing back in the early 80's.

And for what it's worth, the angle on Warmoth's tiltback necks is also less than a Les Paul's.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

String trees are added to some straight headstocks to create a break angle which is naturally created by a tilt back headstock.

Another way of doing increasing break angle without string trees on a straight headstock is by using staggered tuners. Usually staggered locking tuners.

That is what you have.


Nope, the straighter the string pull the less likelihood of friction and angles reducing tuning stability.


Not stress, but they are an area where if the strings loosen and re-seat differently that can reduce tuning stability.

At this point, I am beginning to wonder if these questions are genuine.

yes, the questions are genuine. i like to make sure all my I's are dotted and T's are crossed before i make a purchase, especially with something i'm new to and don't really have any knowledge or starting reference point for. i'm not a compulsive buyer......more of a super-discerning buyer, with a bit of OCD mixed into it.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

Great discussion, and thanks for the info....

My last build was the guitar below using a Tiltback Strat headstock. A local luthier crafted a delrin nut for the neck, but warned that while using what he thought was the optimal nut material for tuning stability, it wouldn't be the "best" tuning stability. The neck originally came with the Graphtech nut.

The guitar has a Gotoh 510 2pt narrow string spaced bridge. My impression is that the tuning stability is "ok". When I put some nut lube on it, it's better.

I would have thought the tiltback would be superior since all the stings have a common break angle without the need for string trees. I wonder if a tiltback, with a lighter angle for the tiltback, would be optimal? It would seem to rectify the issue Stratamania spoke of, while providing a string tree'less string path. I think some Ibanez models have the lighter angled tiltback.

Regarding a straight headstock. I've been lucky that the Warmoth Tele Hybrid, using Hipshot staggered tuners, LSR nut and Wilkinson VS100 bridge, functions well without the need for string trees. By the way, of any non locking trem guitar I have, this guitar holds the best tuning. The 1st W I built was a Tele. While it has a standard Tele bridge, even with the same Hipshot staggered tuners set, it needed a string tree for the high E string.

View attachment 63316

"My last build was the guitar below using a Tiltback Strat headstock. A local luthier crafted a delrin nut for the neck, but warned that while using what he thought was the optimal nut material for tuning stability, it wouldn't be the "best" tuning stability. The neck originally came with the Graphtech nut."

so is this a straight neck? a bit hard to tell from the photo. what is the LRS nut made out of? i know i want to go locking tuners now. just don't want to spend over $100 on them. i guess hipshots would be the best under that price point? do hipshots use an 13/32" tuner hole? the warmoth rep told me the "plant-waves 13/32" holes were for most locking tuners but he never answered my question regarding hipshot locking tuners.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

String trees are added to some straight headstocks to create a break angle which is naturally created by a tilt back headstock.

Another way of doing increasing break angle without string trees on a straight headstock is by using staggered tuners. Usually staggered locking tuners.

That is what you have.


Nope, the straighter the string pull the less likelihood of friction and angles reducing tuning stability.


Not stress, but they are an area where if the strings loosen and re-seat differently that can reduce tuning stability.

At this point, I am beginning to wonder if these questions are genuine.

i do apologize if you find my questions "annoying" or overly redundant. that's not my intention. i just try to confirm certain features and their advantages/disadvantages. i like posting to groups where there are actual people who have years of personal experience with products and to hear each person's opinion on it. i also watch youtube videos but they are often one-sided and leave a lot of questions unanswered, like is there a tone difference that anyone notices between a vintage modern and a modern regular or modern tiltback? i heard some people on a different board say that the double trussrod creates a different sound, but not as good as the vintage/modern single trussrod. so i like to find out why that might be...and if this anomoly in the sound is present in the modern tiltback or just in the non-tiltback modern.....
.....and does a satin nitro finsh feel a bit more slippery than a standard gloss finish? in my mind the satin nitro would be slicker....but i haven't played one, so i have to ask the question to people who have played them. and is it worth the money to get the Schaller M6 Locking Guitar Tuners for $140 over the Hipshot locking tuners for $65?

yes, i posted a slightly different thread today regarding these question b/c i thought this thread might be "dead" and the questions were mostly different features on the warmoth neck, like the finish, and the tuning hole size, and the compound radius (10-16 vs. 12-16 or 9.5-14"), and the best nut size for 80's type shredding/soloing. they are all valid questions when purchasing a neck. i just make it a point to understand why i'm choosing each option rather than just blindly picking something because someone else has it.

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[rauchman]

"My last build was the guitar below using a Tiltback Strat headstock. A local luthier crafted a delrin nut for the neck, but warned that while using what he thought was the optimal nut material for tuning stability, it wouldn't be the "best" tuning stability. The neck originally came with the Graphtech nut."

so is this a straight neck? a bit hard to tell from the photo. what is the LRS nut made out of? i know i want to go locking tuners now. just don't want to spend over $100 on them. i guess hipshots would be the best under that price point? do hipshots use an 13/32" tuner hole? the warmoth rep told me the "plant-waves 13/32" holes were for most locking tuners but he never answered my question regarding hipshot locking tuners.

Nay, as it says in the post, it is a Tiltback Strat, not a straight headstock. I went with this option because I wanted a 24.75" scale neck, and for that scale, one must get the Modern construction option. The Tiltback allows for a headstock truss road adjustment. I did not want, have ever wanted, and will not want, the side truss rod adjust. Can't stand that option as it prevents shaping the neck heel to something like a Fender Elite / Ultra, rather it prevents repositioning the screw hold in the neck for the Elite / Ultra heel. And, IMHO, it looks like ass. Would love to build a 7/8th's guitar, but there is no neck option that has a headstock truss access, only the side adjust, so I will never build a 7/8th's.

I think, but am not positive, the LRS nut is made from steel. I believe the Hipshot tuners are 10mm.