NEW for 2020: More Compound Radius options!
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amon said:
I am sure he is a cool guy, and knows much about guitar construction. I absolutely agree with his points about great guitar playing being more about the witch than the wand. More about the Indian than the arrow. Etc, etc, etc.
However, I disagree with his overall poo-pooing of the benefits of compound radius.
He dismisses compound radius by arguing that those tiny fractions of an inch don't make a difference to him, and therefore shouldn't make a difference to anyone.
Later he makes an appeal to authority, arguing that compound radius can't possibly make a difference because no one in an 80's metal band ever used one to make a famous record. Then he ups the ante by enlarging his claim from 80's metal guitarists to "anything awesome ever recorded on guitar"....which is both subjective, and....a lot to fact-check.
After which he introduces his new Infinite Radius fretboard, easily differentiated from a 16" straight radius fretboard by....tiny fractions of an inch.
And for the record: I prefer straight radius to Compound Radius. That said, I can absolutely feel/sense a compound radius fretboard when I play it, and can see why others might prefer it.
S
swarfrat
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Hair metal in defense of any radius other than flat?? You'll get splinters under your fingernails scraping the bottom of the barrel like that.
Cagey
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Thousandths of an inch are awfully small. I mean, there's gotta be millions of them. But, I'll wager there are those who'd argue that 10 thousandths of a difference in fret height is tangible and will affect your playing. I know I would, but that's my job as an argumentative old man :laughing7:
BroccoliRob
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amon said:
this guy seems like a tool.
his only goal is to drum up the internet war machines to drive traffic to his youtube channel with faux controversy while proselytizing his own opinions as fact.
the 10-16" is great and now our cup runneth over! the Big W kicking off teh decade with some RAD new stuff already. keep the surprises a-comin'
Cagey
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It's 10" at the nut end (1st fret) and 16" at the bridge end (heel), which if you translate the "cone" out ends up being roughly 18" at the bridge itself. With bridges that don't have height adjustable saddles, sometimes there are shims you can use to adjust height (as the Floyd Rose designs do) or the string slot on the saddles can be cut slightly deeper on the 2 & 5 strings, and slightly deeper still on the 3 & 4 strings, depending on the native radius of the bridge. We're usually only talking a couple/few thousandths, so in the grand scheme of things I suspect many don't even bother. There just isn't a great deal of difference between a 2" section of a 16" and 18" radius arc.
S
swarfrat
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You're not far off. Most people making videos giving their opinion fall into this to some degree or another. He's got some good videos on finishing I've watched before but he's definitely selling himself, and I get the distinct impression he would've stolen my lunch money as a kid.
spe111
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The Aaron said:
Do you think it's less popular because of the higher frets though? The compound radius would solve that problem. It's very comfortable at the lower frets.
I'm sure they're less popular though, because Fender isn't doing them as much, even on otherwise vintage spec guitars.
S
swarfrat
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Oh give me a 7.25-10" or thereabouts with a double acting truss rod, and a 1-5/8" nut on a baritone neck and my wife will be yelling at me again.
Strat Avenger
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I'm not knocking the compound radius (I have two Warmoth necks with the 10-16), however I've always been quite comfortable with a straight radius. Most of my guitars have a straight 12", and one with a 9.5" which is nice as well.
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Street Avenger said:
Straight 12" radius is my preference as well.
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gingataff said:
Cagey's response was correct, as usual.
10" radius is at the headstock end of the neck, and 16" is at the bridge end. You'll notice that in the video, when I stick the neck inside the cone, the headstock end is on the small-radius side of the cone (representing 10"), and the bridge end is on the large-radius end of the cone (representing 16").
All that other gobbledegook Cagey said about the radius extending to about 18" at the bridge was all correct too.
Pretty much, just listen to Cagey and you'll be fine.
Ninja00151
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Dang, now I gotta try and decide on a straight 12" vs a 12-16 compound for the next neck. Any suggestions?
Real talk though, an "infinate radius" (flat fretboard) would be really interesting. I'd buy one. If it was good enough for chord work on classical guitar, no reason it shouldn't work for electric guitar! It should give you the lowest action, and easiest bends too.
In theory it should be easier to manufacture than a compound radius. From what I understand, getting stainless steel frets seated perfectly into a compound radius fretboard is the worst-case scenario, because the SS frets don't like to bend to the radius of the fretboard... so you need to change a pressing head to match the curvature of the fretboard. With a compound radius its constantly changing so... either you change the pressing head a few times and get some close approximations, or you change the pressing head for every fret, which would take forever.
With a flat fretboard, you'd just need a single flat "pressing head" for the entire fretboard. Quick and precise! No different from something like a straight 12" fretboard, just flat lol.
Real talk though, an "infinate radius" (flat fretboard) would be really interesting. I'd buy one. If it was good enough for chord work on classical guitar, no reason it shouldn't work for electric guitar! It should give you the lowest action, and easiest bends too.
In theory it should be easier to manufacture than a compound radius. From what I understand, getting stainless steel frets seated perfectly into a compound radius fretboard is the worst-case scenario, because the SS frets don't like to bend to the radius of the fretboard... so you need to change a pressing head to match the curvature of the fretboard. With a compound radius its constantly changing so... either you change the pressing head a few times and get some close approximations, or you change the pressing head for every fret, which would take forever.
With a flat fretboard, you'd just need a single flat "pressing head" for the entire fretboard. Quick and precise! No different from something like a straight 12" fretboard, just flat lol.
Cagey
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Just a suggestion - if you think playing a flat fretboard is easier, you may want to find a music store that sells classic guitars and try to play one. Its... enlightening.
It IS somewhat more difficult to fret a compound radius if you aren't set up for it, but if you are, it's not the problem one might imagine.. I do it all the time. The fret's radius does need to match the fretboard radius because they're unforgiving, else you'll get pop-ups and high spots if they relax to their (possibly incorrect) pre-installed radius. But, in my case, I have these multi-bin storage drawers and I'll radius a pile of frets and stash them by position, so I just pick the right fret for its slot and press it in. It does require a few changes of the caul in the press as you go along, but that's a 45 second job if you screw around lighting a cigarette while you're doing it.
Overall, I figure I add about 2 hours overall to a fretjob by using stainless over NS, but that's mostly because grinding them flush to fretboard edge and beveling the things is a bloody (sometimes literally) nightmare for me. If I did it any more than I do and lived somewhere different, there's a tool I'd buy to mitigate that whole thing, but I'm not going to do that here. As it is, I just take a lotta breaks :icon_biggrin:
It IS somewhat more difficult to fret a compound radius if you aren't set up for it, but if you are, it's not the problem one might imagine.. I do it all the time. The fret's radius does need to match the fretboard radius because they're unforgiving, else you'll get pop-ups and high spots if they relax to their (possibly incorrect) pre-installed radius. But, in my case, I have these multi-bin storage drawers and I'll radius a pile of frets and stash them by position, so I just pick the right fret for its slot and press it in. It does require a few changes of the caul in the press as you go along, but that's a 45 second job if you screw around lighting a cigarette while you're doing it.
Overall, I figure I add about 2 hours overall to a fretjob by using stainless over NS, but that's mostly because grinding them flush to fretboard edge and beveling the things is a bloody (sometimes literally) nightmare for me. If I did it any more than I do and lived somewhere different, there's a tool I'd buy to mitigate that whole thing, but I'm not going to do that here. As it is, I just take a lotta breaks :icon_biggrin:
Ninja00151
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Thanks for the input Cagey! I was curious what your opinion was, you'd know better than anyone lol.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm surprised that Warmoth can handle compound orders at all, at their scale. That's a feat!
I don't think that flat fretboard are necessarily easier or harder, but I do believe that fretboard radius is personal because it ends up being what you're most familiar with. I'd be surprised if you couldn't adapt to a flat fretboard, and I imagine that classically trained guitarists would love to have the option of a flat fretboard on electric guitar.
I could be completely wrong though. Lol!
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm surprised that Warmoth can handle compound orders at all, at their scale. That's a feat!
I don't think that flat fretboard are necessarily easier or harder, but I do believe that fretboard radius is personal because it ends up being what you're most familiar with. I'd be surprised if you couldn't adapt to a flat fretboard, and I imagine that classically trained guitarists would love to have the option of a flat fretboard on electric guitar.
I could be completely wrong though. Lol!
Logrinn
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I once built a guitar using a flat fretboard. It came out pretty decent, but I don't think most guitarplayers that play electric would particularly like it.
Lowest action, yes (in theory), easist bends, no - because the action would be too low.
If anyone is interested and going to NAMM then perhaps you could swing by Vigier's booth (if they'll be there). Their Shawn Lane signature model features a flat fretboard.
Ninja00151 said:
Lowest action, yes (in theory), easist bends, no - because the action would be too low.
If anyone is interested and going to NAMM then perhaps you could swing by Vigier's booth (if they'll be there). Their Shawn Lane signature model features a flat fretboard.
Cagey
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Ninja00151 said:
I've not seen how Warmoth handles the fretting itself. Aaron did a video that shows them making necks, but that detail isn't part of it. I suspect they do something similar to what I do, pre-bending and cutting fretwire in bulk by position, or they'd have the same problem everybody does with that. Difference might be in scale. They may take a coil of fretwire and make a big pile of 10", 10.4", 10.8"...16" radius frets and bin them by radius, choosing what's appropriate as they go.
Be easy at that point when fretting a neck to just grab the correct radius fret, tap it in a bit, then put the whole neck in a "custom" press of some sort. I don't know. All I know is if the fret isn't radiused right, it ain't gonna work. Those things are like weapons-grade compared to NS frets, and are non-conformal. I don't care if you glue 'em in or what.
I saw a video of Gibson fretting necks in production, and what they do is use a custom power tool that has a continuous wire feed. Lay the thing across a fret slot, and it knocks the wire in and cuts it off flush all in one trigger pull. Watching them fret a neck is like watching a roofer pound nails into shingles with an auto-feed pneumatic hammer. It's like "Bang, bang, bang..." and it's on to the next station. Makes me envious :laughing7:
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