Frets Too Flat. Radius Sanding Blocks or Files and Gauges?

[tomasino]

Hey gang, looking for some advice on "what to do next and how to do it".

Neck: 
Pro Conversion (Tele) / 10 - 16" compound radius / Mahogany back / Roasted Maple fretboard / S6105 frets / Earvana GraphTech nut.  /  relief .009" / Frets nicely crowned and polished.

Have a little more string buzz than I'd like (across all strings.. it's very uniform) and the action could be lower (currently 5 - 6/64"). 
Wanna be like you guys with compound radius necks at 3 - 4/64" action and NO buzz.  :glasses10: 

I've searched and researched my buzz issue and have come to the conclusion I'm moving my frets towards a flat state.
Probably a result of the filing technique I've used.  The buzz isn't that bad.  Can't hear it through the amp. 
Certainly can hear it in the air and leaves me with the sense that sustain is being compromised.

So I need/want to reintroduce a smidgeon of radius back into the fret profile.

I have a set of radius gauges (7.25" - 20") and these two fret files.
http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Fretting/Fret_Fingerboard_Leveling_Files.html
http://neckcheckguitar.com/fret-leveling-borard/


I understand the general consensus is that radius sanding blocks for fret work are considered bad.  But they are an option I'm considering.
AND
If I had used better technique with the files, this wouldn't be a problem.

If I were to use the files to do this, what would be a good technique?


Thanks!

 

[Strat Avenger]

A compound radius does nothing to reduce fret buzz, and 3/64" is pretty ridiculous.

For minimal fret buzz, the frets must be level, and the neck must have the proper amount of relief. The neck must also not have any twist in it.

 

[pabloman]

The neck started as a compound radius. The frets have had some arc taken out here and there due to improper filing. That most certainly can cause fret buzz. The OP wants to return his frets back to the original radius. Any suggestions Street?

 

[Strat Avenger]

The neck started as a compound radius. The frets have had some arc taken out here and there due to improper filing. That most certainly can cause fret buzz. The OP wants to return his frets back to the original radius. Any suggestions Street?

I guess I misunderstood the question.
I'm thinking a re-fret may be the only solution, but I'm sure more experienced members can chime in.

 

[stratamania]

I think the OP needs to provide more information on where the buzz is and what sounds and feels like.

What are the reasons to conclude that the radius has been levelled out other than buzz.

Whatever compounds are levelled with you need to follow the direction that the strings take. If you level in straight lines instead paralell to the centre line of the neck then it will get messed up.

 

[pabloman]

It's pretty much like any other fret leveling job. Just make sure your neck is adjusted properly then have at it with a leveling beam and sand paper. Go the length of the fretboard in a straight path. Maybe just a little s-curve twistie down the fretboard but not much. You can mark your frets with a sharpie first to help identify low spots. You can use a fret rocker to really pinpoint your trouble spots. Others will have more advice. There are lots of techniques and tips and tricks. This is just a very generic and brief run down. The finer points are covered in much more detail all over YouTube. God luck ccasion14:

 

[tomasino]

Guess I still have some 'splainin to do (Lucy).

First, this is not a "problem", yet.  The guitar plays great and sounds great through the amp.
I've reached an acceptable balance between low action and string buzz (that "trade off" the pro's refer to).
So IMHO, the action is as low as it'll go without too much buzzing.

Also, still have plenty of meat on the frets and I do work very carefully with the proper tools.  (have the notched straight edge, the rocker tool, files and sandpaper).
This guitar is my #1 and I won't be touching these frets again 'till the next string change.
I'm just trying to plan ahead and work out all the details before executing my next move.
I'll be happy if I simply nudge things back in the right direction.

Searching/Researching this board (and others), came across a number of posts from guys that say their action is down to 3 - 4/64" n' no buzzing.
One common parameter they all seem to share is Neck Relief is .008" - .009".
Fingers firmly crossed, the diff between their setup's and mine, is very subtle.

This is why I think the frets are too flat.

• More relief (up to .011") doesn't change anything.
• The buzz is very uniform across all strings and all positions. 
• A straight edge set diagonally across the frets, shows they're flatter than they should be. It should rock a little bit (more).

If there was ever a time to use radius sanding blocks, I think this is it. :icon_scratch:  I thiiink  :dontknow:

I'll check the UTube some more.. maybe Frudua has some info. on this. 

Thanks again.

 

[NovasScootYa]

File leveling was a big mistake and I doubt if you'll ever get the neck to play as well as it did or could have out of the box. For the first year or more while the neck is settling you should have used the fret rocker to locate high frets or a high area on a fret and used a plastic or brass dowel to reseat. Spot leveling may have been necessary but that too is risky. When it comes to frets it's best to follow the machinist rule that says, "You can take it off but you cannot put it back on." Messing with files and fret crowns is the last thing that needs to be done and that's after you give yourself a 2 week cooling off period just to be sure it wasn't a case of temporary insanity.
Relief is correct at .008" - .009" although a good beefy quartersawn Pro Neck will have no problem with .007 inch. Relief is checked by holding down a well stretched/used low E on the 1st fret and 17th frets. Clearance is checked on the 7th or 8th fret. On the other hand some necks with tightly adjusted truss-rods with little relief can detract from the instrument acoustically.
You may already know the above or following but I'll continue on...Action is set by holding the strings down on the first fret and checking clearance on the 12th fret. Clearance should be 3/64" high E and 4/64" low E. Never adjust action/string height off the nut, it's better to adjust string height from the first fret.
The nut slot depth is determined by holding the low E down on the second fret and measuring clearance between the string and first fret. General clearances: E & A gets a loose .009"  D .008"  G .008" B. 007" High E .006" There are times when an Earvana or other compensated nut is needed or assumed to be needed because the string height at the nut is too much and causes the Low E and other strings to stretch sharp, etc. Don't get me wrong, I like the Earvana and some others and the straight roller style as well. Some string brands and string sizes or bad strings or a bad string can also be the cause of buzz/intonation problems, etc.
IMO...All the 1 11/16" nut width 6105 fretted Warmoth necks need is a shortened 7.25" radius block wrapped with various grades of abrasive sheets to roll and soften the edges of the board gradually tapering off to the 14th fret area which leaves little to do with the remaining frets and board edges. Do not overly roll the fret ends as they need to maintain a bit of untouched crown space and a shoulder for the E strings. Use a good fret end file and use various grades of Mico-Mesh sheets wrapped around a chrome blade type Stew-Mac diamond fret file to polish the frets, etc. Do not use masking tape on the board as all it does is leave behind specs of goo in the pores or use a buffing wheel that heats up the frets fast. I used to refret necks before my first long ago Warmoth Neck purchase. At the time I expected to have to file-level the frets and that's also what I "heard" was necessary. One look and one check with a fret rocker was all it took to leave more than well enough alone and that's been the policy with every Warmoth neck since.
If some miracle doesn't happen to save your neck because radius blocks and more filing probably will not my suggestion would be to sell the neck on eBay as needs-work and order a new neck. There are a few very skilled people out there who can fix it and there are players out there who play necks with the strings so high you can park a Mack Truck beneath them.

 

[Cagey]

This is why I think the frets are too flat.

• More relief (up to .011") doesn't change anything.
• The buzz is very uniform across all strings and all positions. 
• A straight edge set diagonally across the frets, shows they're flatter than they should be. It should rock a little bit (more).

If there was ever a time to use radius sanding blocks, I think this is it. :icon_scratch:  I thiiink  :dontknow:

• Adding relief doesn't always eliminate buzz. Usually, it reduces playability and indicates a fret leveling problem.
• A uniform buzz across all strings and positions implicates the bridge more than the frets.
• The 'board could be absent a radius altogether and it wouldn't cause a buzz. Trying to put one back in via fret filing is likely futile.
• You can't use radius blocks on a compound radius neck.

What kind of bridge do you have installed? Has anything been done to the saddles?

 

[tomasino]

Thanks for that NovaScootYa. 
Aside from the declarations of doom and gloom, certainly some words of wisdom and good info. in there.

You mentioned the Earvana nut.. it was installed at the Warmoth factory.
I've been a little suspicious of this nut 'cuz other folks say "the nut can only be cut properly while on the guitar.. it's the last thing that gets done".
So far my experience with it has been good, but I'm wondering if it's standing in the way of even lower action.

Hey you 3/64's guys, are you cutting your own nuts?

A genius band mate last night said two things. 
1.  I don't know what you're talking about.  Your guitar feels great, plays great and sounds really good.
2.  If your so damn worried about it... Have it PLEK'd.

Have it PLEK'd.. 
Hmmmmmm.. thinking...

 

[tomasino]

• Adding relief doesn't always eliminate buzz. Usually, it reduces playability and indicates a fret leveling problem.
• A uniform buzz across all strings and positions implicates the bridge more than the frets.
• The 'board could be absent a radius altogether and it wouldn't cause a buzz. Trying to put one back in via fret filing is likely futile.
• You can't use radius blocks on a compound radius neck.

What kind of bridge do you have installed? Has anything been done to the saddles?

Hey thanks for chimin' in Cagey. Been reading some of your other posts.

It's the Flat Strat Mount Bridge w/Vintage Spacing (Warmoth '72 ThinLine Tele).  Now regret going with this bridge :-\.  Hate these grub screws!
This one:  http://www.warmoth.com/Strat-Flat-Mount-Bridge-Vintage-Spacing-Gold-P581C703.aspx

Yes, the saddles were replaced with these GraphTechs. 
These:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002E4Y8S?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

Didn't notice any diff in the string buzz, but the grub screws are gone!


If I were to try the radius block thing, I'd get the set of 4" blocks and do my best to use the right one in the right section of the neck.
Still sounds kinda dodgy when compared to the PLEKing.

 

[tomasino]

I think the answer is Get It PLEK'd.. best the thing to do is get it PLEK'd.

Thanks gang!

 

[stratamania]

I have two necks with Earvana nuts, one neck is modern and one vintage modern. Both with the types of actions you are seeking. These have 6100 SS frets.

Both nuts, I did a little work on to get the string height correct and to make sure the angles and so forth were correct.

I also have a Hamer that was Pleked when I had it re fretted, that has 6105 SS. The thing to remember with Plek, is that the it is still in the hands of the operator to make various decisions of what the machine needs to do.

Good luck, at this point if you are not certain and confident in what you would be doing or why, a Plek or a pro looking at it for you may be the way to go.

 

[tomasino]

I have two necks with Earvana nuts, one neck is modern and one vintage modern. Both with the types of actions you are seeking. These have 6100 SS frets.

Both nuts, I did a little work on to get the string height correct and to make sure the angles and so forth were correct.

I also have a Hamer that was Pleked when I had it re fretted, that has 6105 SS. The thing to remember with Plek, is that the it is still in the hands of the operator to make various decisions of what the machine needs to do.

Cool, thanks.  Good to know.

I found a PLEK machine less than an hour away!  :glasses10:
Gonna drop it off today n' have 'em do an entire setup. 
They say it's usually a 2 day turn around.

More later..

 

[tomasino]

K' the PLEKing is complete.  :headbang: 

It definitely fixed the radius problem with the frets.  It's visible, I can see it.
Plays great, feels good and the fret buzz is gone.

The action is 3/64 on the "e" and 4/64 on the "E". 
The rest of the strings are at heights slightly in-between.

Interesting experience though. 
The guys at the shop didn't want/need to hear any of my background story or descriptions about the neck and the frets. 
I actually called them the day after I dropped it off to make sure "they didn't needed to know it was a 10"-16" Compound Radius".
They said "Naaggghh.. The PLEK machine and computer would map it all out automatically. 
Appears to have done exactly that. 

There is still a little residual buzzing going on, but it's now very obvious that it's in the saddles (the GraphTechs).
So what's the general consenus on fixing a little saddle buzz?
Should I just "play it in" till it goes away?
Or maybe use the files to cut some small grooves to seat the strings in a smidgeon?

Either way, I'm  not gonna do anything 'till next string change. 
Just gonna play it!  :guitarplayer2:

 

[Strat Avenger]

Dude, 3/64" is ridiculously low string height. The "residual buzz" is to be expected.

 

[raystankewitz]

3/64" is right in the string buzz zone. Anyone that says they can get their action that low with no buzz, I would like to see that. It's real easy to type about low action but it's another thing to hand someone your axe and let them evaluate it. I'm at 4/64" on the e and 5/64" on the E with all four Strats in the house. I still get a bit of odd occasional buzz, too. No biggie. I have learned to live with it.

If your git-filddle was Plek'd and the operator didn't hose the 'board, just play it. Yeah. Accept it will have those occasional buzzes. Enjoy. YMMV.

:rock-on: