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Tiltback headstock vs Straight Headstock and Trem use

rauchman

Hero Member
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Greetings,

Assuming using locking tuners (staggered for straight headstock) and a TusqXL nut, any advantage/disadvantage to a tiltback (assumes Strat shape or other non linear dispersion from nut to tuner post, shape) vs straight back headstock for keeping the guitar in tune while using a trem?
 
The original reasoning behind the tilt back was to assure proper down pressure on the nut. However when it's a tremolo setup, that changes things. Unless the nut is shaped precisely and the slots sized exactly for the string gauge used, your probably better of going with a straight head. Then you only have to worry about making sure the strings don't hangup in the slots. Whether or not a tilt back affected the sound of the instrument is still being debated now a days, with no clear evidence either way.
 
PhilHill said:
The original reasoning behind the tilt back was to assure proper down pressure on the nut. However when it's a tremolo setup, that changes things. Unless the nut is shaped precisely and the slots sized exactly for the string gauge used, your probably better of going with a straight head. Then you only have to worry about making sure the strings don't hangup in the slots. Whether or not a tilt back affected the sound of the instrument is still being debated now a days, with no clear evidence either way.

Thank you.  However, I'm not understanding how the bolded is specific to the tiltback only.  Wouldn't both require cleanly cut nuts?
 
rauchman said:
PhilHill said:
The original reasoning behind the tilt back was to assure proper down pressure on the nut. However when it's a tremolo setup, that changes things. Unless the nut is shaped precisely and the slots sized exactly for the string gauge used, your probably better of going with a straight head. Then you only have to worry about making sure the strings don't hangup in the slots. Whether or not a tilt back affected the sound of the instrument is still being debated now a days, with no clear evidence either way.

Thank you.  However, I'm not understanding how the bolded is specific to the tiltback only.  Wouldn't both require cleanly cut nuts?

Sorry, sometimes I don't make my answers clear enough. Both would require that the slots be cleanly filed and the right size with an angled bottom, but the tilt back also requires that the fallaway or rounding over of the tuner side of the nut be done a certain way, whereas the flat head style doesn't need this added step because it's square shouldered on both sides. Hope that helps. :icon_thumright:
 
PhilHill said:
rauchman said:
PhilHill said:
The original reasoning behind the tilt back was to assure proper down pressure on the nut. However when it's a tremolo setup, that changes things. Unless the nut is shaped precisely and the slots sized exactly for the string gauge used, your probably better of going with a straight head. Then you only have to worry about making sure the strings don't hangup in the slots. Whether or not a tilt back affected the sound of the instrument is still being debated now a days, with no clear evidence either way.

Thank you.  However, I'm not understanding how the bolded is specific to the tiltback only.  Wouldn't both require cleanly cut nuts?

Sorry, sometimes I don't make my answers clear enough. Both would require that the slots be cleanly filed and the right size with an angled bottom, but the tilt back also requires that the fallaway or rounding over of the tuner side of the nut be done a certain way, whereas the flat head style doesn't need this added step because it's square shouldered on both sides. Hope that helps. :icon_thumright:

Thank you!
 
FWIW I was never able to get proper tuning stability with a 3+3 tiltback Warmoth neck on my Soloist body with Gotoh VS100N tremolo. I cut 12+ nuts for it, a tech told me it looked proper yet tuning stability was highly questionable (it was barely acceptable in one case).

In contrast another Warmoth build with VS100N and Strat headstock has been perfect tuning stability-wise.
I asked about this last year after building this guitar and others told me this wasn't expected, although the non-straight string pull definitely doesn't help.

I tried one last time this past week-end and finally gave up. I have the neck for sale at a considerable loss and will be replacing it with a Warhead neck (straight string pull).

I don't see myself ever using a 3+3 headstock again unless I use a Floyd w/ locking nut, or use a hardtail bridge (I have a VIP build and that combination works perfectly fine for me).

YMMV.
 
I find I get less sympathetic vibrations of the strings behind the nut with tiltback headstocks so they have become my preference. All of my guitars with standard nuts have hardtails so I haven't had to deal with any unusual tuning instability.  All seem rock solid.

I tried one last time this past week-end and finally gave up. I have the neck for sale at a considerable loss and will be replacing it with a Warhead neck (straight string pull).
docteurseb, do you still have that neck for sale?  I can see the topic title in the Gear for Sale forum but when I click on it I get a completely blank page.
 
docteurseb said:
FWIW I was never able to get proper tuning stability with a 3+3 tiltback Warmoth neck on my Soloist body with Gotoh VS100N tremolo. I cut 12+ nuts for it, a tech told me it looked proper yet tuning stability was highly questionable (it was barely acceptable in one case).

In contrast another Warmoth build with VS100N and Strat headstock has been perfect tuning stability-wise.
I asked about this last year after building this guitar and others told me this wasn't expected, although the non-straight string pull definitely doesn't help.

I tried one last time this past week-end and finally gave up. I have the neck for sale at a considerable loss and will be replacing it with a Warhead neck (straight string pull).

I don't see myself ever using a 3+3 headstock again unless I use a Floyd w/ locking nut, or use a hardtail bridge (I have a VIP build and that combination works perfectly fine for me).

YMMV.

Great info.....thanks!
 
VinceClortho said:
I find I get less sympathetic vibrations of the strings behind the nut with tiltback headstocks so they have become my preference. All of my guitars with standard nuts have hardtails so I haven't had to deal with any unusual tuning instability.  All seem rock solid.

I tried one last time this past week-end and finally gave up. I have the neck for sale at a considerable loss and will be replacing it with a Warhead neck (straight string pull).
docteurseb, do you still have that neck for sale?  I can see the topic title in the Gear for Sale forum but when I click on it I get a completely blank page.

I do still have it for sale (only listed couple days ago), it's not an easy one to sell being expensive and green.
The post somehow 'broke' when editing it and trying to upload pictures.
I contacted couple admins (Aaron & Cagey) to see if they could fix it or delete it, but haven't heard back.
 
I can't get it to show up either so I can't delete or modify it. Just post it again, and see what happens. Might have just been a forum/internet glitch the server hasn't resolved for some reason.
 
Cagey said:
I can't get it to show up either so I can't delete or modify it. Just post it again, and see what happens. Might have just been a forum/internet glitch the server hasn't resolved for some reason.

  I tried a couple times and all I'm getting is a blank page.
 
Thanks, in that case I just reposted it. This time instead of trying to upload pictures I just linked to them from Flickr (a bit painful to do as it takes several steps to get a usable link from Flickr)
 
It's slightly more difficult to do it that way, but on the plus side, you have a more editing/formating capabilities that way. It also reduces the bandwidth load on Warmoth's server, which I'm sure they appreciate.
 
If we assume a perfect world where every single element is shaped/cut/fit/installed exactly perfectly, a tiltback should be more stable than a straight headstock, for heavy vibrato use. If you've ever tried an early Gibson or Epiphone archtop (or a modern Gibson Custom Shop recreation) with a Bigsby then you know that you can get about two steps of dip and a half step of rise out of one, all night long, without neutral tuning shifting in the slightest.

But in a world of mass production parts where everything is picked up off the CNC, dusted down and shipped, you can't expect that kind of consistency any more, and the simpler you can make a guitar now the more likely it'll work. For mass production parts—including Warmoth's—a straight headstock is definitely the safest option.

I will say that the most stable option with modern parts and tolerances is to split the difference and have either a very slight tilt or staggered tuners on a straight headstock, so you get just a little bit of downward pressure over the nut but not much. Better than using a retainer bar/T/tree, which will nearly always just snag the strings. If you check out Brian May and Jeff Beck, both their guitars use a very gentle break angle at the nut (May has a tiny angle to his headstock, Beck has staggered tuners) and nuts that barely hold the strings at all ('0' fret with bottomless nut for May, Wilkinson roller nut for Beck) and they can abuse their vibratos heavily without issue, as can you if you pick up one of their signature guitar recreations.

Also bear in mind that the sideways angle the strings come through the nut also matters. 3x3 headstocks, even if they're 'straight', often require the strings to bend slightly left or right when exiting the nut to get to the tuner. Getting the tuners completely in-line with the nut slots greatly helps tuning stability with a vibrato. (Another stumbling block for many mass production parts.)
 
Ace Flibble said:
If we assume a perfect world where every single element is shaped/cut/fit/installed exactly perfectly, a tiltback should be more stable than a straight headstock, for heavy vibrato use. If you've ever tried an early Gibson or Epiphone archtop (or a modern Gibson Custom Shop recreation) with a Bigsby then you know that you can get about two steps of dip and a half step of rise out of one, all night long, without neutral tuning shifting in the slightest.

But in a world of mass production parts where everything is picked up off the CNC, dusted down and shipped, you can't expect that kind of consistency any more, and the simpler you can make a guitar now the more likely it'll work. For mass production parts—including Warmoth's—a straight headstock is definitely the safest option.

I will say that the most stable option with modern parts and tolerances is to split the difference and have either a very slight tilt or staggered tuners on a straight headstock, so you get just a little bit of downward pressure over the nut but not much. Better than using a retainer bar/T/tree, which will nearly always just snag the strings. If you check out Brian May and Jeff Beck, both their guitars use a very gentle break angle at the nut (May has a tiny angle to his headstock, Beck has staggered tuners) and nuts that barely hold the strings at all ('0' fret with bottomless nut for May, Wilkinson roller nut for Beck) and they can abuse their vibratos heavily without issue, as can you if you pick up one of their signature guitar recreations.

Also bear in mind that the sideways angle the strings come through the nut also matters. 3x3 headstocks, even if they're 'straight', often require the strings to bend slightly left or right when exiting the nut to get to the tuner. Getting the tuners completely in-line with the nut slots greatly helps tuning stability with a vibrato. (Another stumbling block for many mass production parts.)

Good post. Problems at the nut have always been the sticking point, (Both literally and figuratively.) with trems. Down pressure on the nut is just as important as lateral containment. The nut establishes the starting point of the strings working length. Hangups in the nut are what inspired the locking nut, but that brings it's own set of problems. A roller nut solves the binding problems, but must be precisely placed to allow proper intonation as the contact point of the string changes with downward angle of the string. A standard nut has to be slotted to exacting size and shape both in the slots and on the tuner side radius. And still you may get problems depending on string brand and construction. A tremolo is a great invention, and a bloody nightmare at the same time. :icon_thumright:
 
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