Non recessed floyd route setup

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
132
The guitar will be visiting a luthier in the next month or two. Hopefully at that point a reasonable and professional solution can be sorted. I will come back and update this thread if and when I find any solutions to this challenge. In all honesty I don’t intend on using a trem stopper. I don’t like the clunk sound/feel they make when the trem comes to rest. I am certain that the bridge must rest on the body for me to be happy with the setup. I feel as though a competent tech will be able to set it up as I have described. Hopefully additional routing or sanding of the pocket is not required. Although if necessary, it is not out of the question.
 

Wolfie351

Senior member
Messages
232
TheGreatRedDragon said:
Wolfie351 said:
I missed the part where OP said they didn't want to it to float, there shouldn't be any neck angle at all. This would have been an off-the-menu request, does your Warmoth invoice note this OP?

I've asked for it in the past (specifically so I could have a finished Showcase body with a non-recessed Floyd) and was given a hard "no."

I've found that special request approvals correlate to how busy they are.  I do happen to own a non-angled, non-recessed Floyd body so I know it's been done.  But, with that said, I think the answer will always be "no" for showcase bodies.
 

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
132
Wolfie351 said:
I've found that special request approvals correlate to how busy they are.  I do happen to own a non-angled, non-recessed Floyd body so I know it's been done.  But, with that said, I think the answer will always be "no" for showcase bodies.

How well did this guitar setup? How's the action and floyd height? Did you need to shim the neck?
 

Wolfie351

Senior member
Messages
232
bruzanhd said:
Wolfie351 said:
I've found that special request approvals correlate to how busy they are.  I do happen to own a non-angled, non-recessed Floyd body so I know it's been done.  But, with that said, I think the answer will always be "no" for showcase bodies.

How well did this guitar setup? How's the action and floyd height? Did you need to shim the neck?

It wasn't my intention to deck the Floyd so it never went through a final setup in that configuration.  I put in a 1 degree shim and the end result is what you see in my pic earlier in the thread. 

As for Warmoth, they do one thing and do it very very well.  They produce Fender spec bodies and necks with a massive array of wood and finish options.  If you stray away from that standard spec (like a decked Floyd), you aren't likely to get a definitive answer or guarantee it will work for your application.
 

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
132
Wolfie351 said:
It wasn't my intention to deck the Floyd so it never went through a final setup in that configuration.  I put in a 1 degree shim and the end result is what you see in my pic earlier in the thread. 

As for Warmoth, they do one thing and do it very very well.  They produce Fender spec bodies and necks with a massive array of wood and finish options.  If you stray away from that standard spec (like a decked Floyd), you aren't likely to get a definitive answer or guarantee it will work for your application.

Tbh this is what I needed to hear. I guess I assumed that the decked Floyd was more common than it is and everything would work out a bit more seamlessly. Hopefully my tech can set it up as I had hoped or modify it such that it can be done how I want.
 

TheOtherEric

Active member
Messages
63
bruzanhd said:
The guitar will be visiting a luthier in the next month or two. Hopefully at that point a reasonable and professional solution can be sorted. I will come back and update this thread if and when I find any solutions to this challenge. In all honesty I don’t intend on using a trem stopper. I don’t like the clunk sound/feel they make when the trem comes to rest. I am certain that the bridge must rest on the body for me to be happy with the setup. I feel as though a competent tech will be able to set it up as I have described. Hopefully additional routing or sanding of the pocket is not required. Although if necessary, it is not out of the question.
You're not going to get what you want. Decking a FR (i.e. tightening the springs down) is not commonly done because of how the FR bridge will hit and ding up the body, unlike Strat-type trems (Fender, Gotoh 510) that can rest on the body with good contact.  Even with a 1-degree shim, the trem plate won't contact the body well, because unlike Strat trems where you can keep the plate flat and adjust string height with saddles, a FR trem plate will almost always be cocked thus hitting the body at one side.  Or putting 6 fat dings in the body from the fine-tuner claws.

Re-routing the body would not look good if it's already painted. If it's unpainted, sure it can be done but it's sketchy without CNC.

The answer for this guitar is to install a 1 degree shim and use a trem stopper of some kind.  You can add little felt adhesive pads on the trem block to prevent the CLUNK sound. I recommend this one with dual rods, under $45.
https://www.amazon.com/Floating-Stabilizer-Dual-Brass-Rod-Mounting-Wilkinson/dp/B08T6KRCJQ

Of course, you don't need a luthier for any of this work.
 

Ian83

New member
Messages
6
I also was looking to build a warmoth strat with a non-recessed Floyd; non-floating, dive only.

Not sure what way to go, is the angled pocket for the FR bridge to float non-recessed?
 

TheOtherEric

Active member
Messages
63
Ian83 said:
I also was looking to build a warmoth strat with a non-recessed Floyd; non-floating, dive only.

Not sure what way to go, is the angled pocket for the FR bridge to float non-recessed?
Correct.  If you want dive only, non-recessed, then specify non-angled pocket.  But may be a possibility of needing a very thin (like .25 degree) shim.  Unlikely though. If you get an angled pocket, you could still make it work but you're guaranteed to require a thick 1 degree shim or thereabouts.
 

Ian83

New member
Messages
6
TheOtherEric said:
Correct.  If you want dive only, non-recessed, then specify non-angled pocket.  But may be a possibility of needing a very thin (like .25 degree) shim.  Unlikely though. If you get an angled pocket, you could still make it work but you're guaranteed to require a thick 1 degree shim or thereabouts.

Thanks. I'm not sure where to specify that, but I guess I'd call to make sure they don't angle it.

From reading other threads on the topic, "The Aaron" and others are quoted saying, "Because if you get a non-recessed Floyd rout, the bridge is going to sit higher up off the body. Without angling the neck back slightly, you'll never be able to achieve low action in the upper frets." They don't mention anything about it being for floating the floyd bridge non-recessed. Yet is requires a shim if it's angled anyway? Or it requires a larger, reverse shim so it doesn't float if the pocket is angled?

*edit... I just read your previous post where you were saying the angled pocket raises the bridge excessively and you would need the larger reverse shim.

Still, the confusing part is they're saying you need it to get low action in the upper frets.
 

stratamania

Senior member
Messages
9,205
Ian83 said:
Still, the confusing part is they're saying you need it to get low action in the upper frets.

That is due to the geometry of the overall neck angle - a non recessed rout the Floyd will end up floating. The angle helps to achieve lower action towards the lower frets.

 

Ian83

New member
Messages
6
stratamania said:
That is due to the geometry of the overall neck angle - a non recessed rout the Floyd will end up floating. The angle helps to achieve lower action towards the lower frets.

I'd like it to be decked/not floating if possible. I don't need super low action, just medium.

How does one deck their Floyd? Some people posted pictures of things mounted between the body and the base of the Floyd, so it's not hitting the body, I'm guessing that's what needs to be done.

 

stratamania

Senior member
Messages
9,205
Ian83 said:
stratamania said:
That is due to the geometry of the overall neck angle - a non recessed rout the Floyd will end up floating. The angle helps to achieve lower action towards the lower frets.

I'd like it to be decked/not floating if possible. I don't need super low action, just medium.

How does one deck their Floyd? Some people posted pictures of things mounted between the body and the base of the Floyd, so it's not hitting the body, I'm guessing that's what needs to be done.

Already discussed in the thread. What you suggest or using a trem stop of some sort is another option.
 

TheOtherEric

Active member
Messages
63
Ian83 said:
Thanks. I'm not sure where to specify that, but I guess I'd call to make sure they don't angle it.

From reading other threads on the topic, "The Aaron" and others are quoted saying, "Because if you get a non-recessed Floyd rout, the bridge is going to sit higher up off the body. Without angling the neck back slightly, you'll never be able to achieve low action in the upper frets." They don't mention anything about it being for floating the floyd bridge non-recessed. Yet is requires a shim if it's angled anyway? Or it requires a larger, reverse shim so it doesn't float if the pocket is angled?

*edit... I just read your previous post where you were saying the angled pocket raises the bridge excessively and you would need the larger reverse shim.

Still, the confusing part is they're saying you need it to get low action in the upper frets.
Like Stratamania said, if you're non-recessed but with a standard non-angled pocket, you'll try to lower the action by lowering the bridge... but then your bridge hits the body and the action is still too high.  So the answer (like The Aaron's quote) is to angle the neck pocket. The big problem is that Warmoth and others use like a 1 degree angle, when .25 would likely be plenty.  With 1 degree, the bridge sits absurdly and unreasonably high, instantly turning your prized Warmoth into no better than a $199 import kit guitar.
 

Ian83

New member
Messages
6
TheOtherEric said:
Like Stratamania said, if you're non-recessed but with a standard non-angled pocket, you'll try to lower the action by lowering the bridge... but then your bridge hits the body and the action is still too high.  So the answer (like The Aaron's quote) is to angle the neck pocket. The big problem is that Warmoth and others use like a 1 degree angle, when .25 would likely be plenty.  With 1 degree, the bridge sits absurdly and unreasonably high, instantly turning your prized Warmoth into no better than a $199 import kit guitar.

Thanks... alright so a non-angled pocket with a smaller .25 shim would be better than the 1 degree angle they use for a floating non-recessed FR for the setup I'd like.

For me this is one of the main reasons I was considering a Warmoth build. Everything else is pretty standard in what I want... ash body strat, unfinished roasted maple neck with 12"-16" compound radius neck, ebony or rosewood fretboard, medium jumbo frets, and the non-recessed, non-floating floyd, which I'd like to be decked against the body instead of having to use a trem-stopper.

 

stratamania

Senior member
Messages
9,205
Ian83 said:
TheOtherEric said:
Like Stratamania said, if you're non-recessed but with a standard non-angled pocket, you'll try to lower the action by lowering the bridge... but then your bridge hits the body and the action is still too high.  So the answer (like The Aaron's quote) is to angle the neck pocket. The big problem is that Warmoth and others use like a 1 degree angle, when .25 would likely be plenty.  With 1 degree, the bridge sits absurdly and unreasonably high, instantly turning your prized Warmoth into no better than a $199 import kit guitar.

Thanks... alright so a non-angled pocket with a smaller .25 shim would be better than the 1 degree angle they use for a floating non-recessed FR for the setup I'd like.

For me this is one of the main reasons I was considering a Warmoth build. Everything else is pretty standard in what I want... ash body strat, unfinished roasted maple neck with 12"-16" compound radius neck, ebony or rosewood fretboard, medium jumbo frets, and the non-recessed, non-floating floyd, which I'd like to be decked against the body instead of having to use a trem-stopper.

If it needs to be decked is there a need to use a traditional Floyd to begin with? 
For example Floyd Rose make a Rail Tail that will retrofit a six screw tremolo that is dive only per its design.
 

Ian83

New member
Messages
6
stratamania said:
Ian83 said:
TheOtherEric said:
Like Stratamania said, if you're non-recessed but with a standard non-angled pocket, you'll try to lower the action by lowering the bridge... but then your bridge hits the body and the action is still too high.  So the answer (like The Aaron's quote) is to angle the neck pocket. The big problem is that Warmoth and others use like a 1 degree angle, when .25 would likely be plenty.  With 1 degree, the bridge sits absurdly and unreasonably high, instantly turning your prized Warmoth into no better than a $199 import kit guitar.

Thanks... alright so a non-angled pocket with a smaller .25 shim would be better than the 1 degree angle they use for a floating non-recessed FR for the setup I'd like.

For me this is one of the main reasons I was considering a Warmoth build. Everything else is pretty standard in what I want... ash body strat, unfinished roasted maple neck with 12"-16" compound radius neck, ebony or rosewood fretboard, medium jumbo frets, and the non-recessed, non-floating floyd, which I'd like to be decked against the body instead of having to use a trem-stopper.

If it needs to be decked is there a need to use a traditional Floyd to begin with? 
For example Floyd Rose make a Rail Tail that will retrofit a six screw tremolo that is dive only per its design.

Thanks for the suggestion, but yeah, I like the locking nut and fine tuners. Love the floyd... it's what I'm used to.
 

TheOtherEric

Active member
Messages
63
Ian83 said:
For me this is one of the main reasons I was considering a Warmoth build.

the non-recessed, non-floating floyd, which I'd like to be decked against the body instead of having to use a trem-stopper.
What is “one of the main reasons…”? You can get the body you described from lots of suppliers.

Like I explained on pg 2, you don’t want to deck a FR trem. That’s not really done since it doesn’t usually work. You need a trem stopper.
 

Sadie-f

Senior member
Messages
427
Yeah, I don't get this desire to stop + direction trem by decking. A trem stop at the tremolo block has more lever arm, and therefore should perform better.
 

Ian83

New member
Messages
6
TheOtherEric said:
Ian83 said:
For me this is one of the main reasons I was considering a Warmoth build.

the non-recessed, non-floating floyd, which I'd like to be decked against the body instead of having to use a trem-stopper.
What is “one of the main reasons…”? You can get the body you described from lots of suppliers.

Like I explained on pg 2, you don’t want to deck a FR trem. That’s not really done since it doesn’t usually work. You need a trem stopper.

Dive only is the main thing, I'm not opposed to a trem stopper that much. I have a tremol-no in a recessed floyd guitar and I'm not a fan of it. I know OFR has their brass blocks, but I've never tried something like that.
 

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
132
Since making this thread I've done some modifying and research on achieving this setup. Anyone saying decked floyds are a bad idea is simply uneducated on the matter. When floyds first came out this is essentially how all of them were setup and designed. Think most 80s guitarists (EVH especially).

That said, Warmoths angled pocket does not allow for a decked setup. Your best bet is to ask for a non angled pocket and then shim to 0.25deg. What I did was just make a sanding block and "substract" angle from the pocket on my build. It worked pretty well but it is not fast. You end up removing roughly 0.8mm of material from the thick end and no material from the thin end of the pocket. It takes a lot of elbow grease. I'll post pictures at some point when I get a chance. Hopefully when someone else inevitably runs into this problem they'll see this information and just get the non angled pocket.

edit:
If you do order the non angled pocket, the best way to shim is to by a set of feeler gauges and use trigonometry to determine the perfect thickness, then drill screw holes and mount the neck.
 
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