Non recessed floyd route setup

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
178
So I'm assembling my build and it's got a non recessed floyd route (angled pocket) and I'm using an OFR. When I installed the bridge and strung it up I noticed the action is unplayably low, it's touching the frets everywhere. In order to get the action playable, the bridge needs to be raised to where the bridge posts are almost halfway out of their bushings, which means A) its floating which i do not want, and B) the posts are going to experience much more torque than they should which is going to oval the post holes in no time at all.

The culprit of the problem seems to be that the neck pocket is angled too much actually. Say the pocket was angled at 1.5° with a tolerance of 0.5°, that is 1.5±0.5°, then mine must be at the limit so that the pocket is nearer to 2°. I've already installed some components so I doubt i can refund the body. Has anyone experienced a problem like this in the past? Was warmoth able to offer a solution?

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
 

stratamania

Senior member
Messages
9,453
Is there any paint in the neck pocket which may be changing the intended angle? If so it may be an idea to clean it out and it may also be that a shim is needed. Also if you are concerned about warranty etc contact Warmoth sales prior to proceeding.
 

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
178
stratamania said:
Is there any paint in the neck pocket which may be changing the intended angle? If so it may be an idea to clean it out and it may also be that a shim is needed. Also if you are concerned about warranty etc contact Warmoth sales prior to proceeding.
Neck pocket is clean, but I can’t really shim it in reverse. If the angle was too low I could easily shim it with no problem. But I can’t unshim a steep angle if that makes sense.
 

Wolfie351

Senior member
Messages
234
If you're saying the strings are touching EVERY fret, that means you didn't shim the nut enough and your neck has no relief.  Back in the day, we'd cut up soda cans for Floyd shims (both nut and saddle). But now, they're like $2 and available everywhere, make it easier on yourself. You're going to need the saddle shims anyways if you got the 10-16 compound neck
 

stratamania

Senior member
Messages
9,453
bruzanhd said:
stratamania said:
Is there any paint in the neck pocket which may be changing the intended angle? If so it may be an idea to clean it out and it may also be that a shim is needed. Also if you are concerned about warranty etc contact Warmoth sales prior to proceeding.
Neck pocket is clean, but I can’t really shim it in reverse. If the angle was too low I could easily shim it with no problem. But I can’t unshim a steep angle if that makes sense.

You can do a reverse shim. You can tilt a neck forwards or backwards with a shim.
https://www.stewmac.com/tonewoods/shop-tonewood-by-instrument/electric-guitar-bodies-and-necks-and-wood/electric-guitar-necks/stewmac-neck-shims-for-guitar/

A good point also from Wolfie351, if you have a 10 -16" compound neck you also need to shim the Floyd Rose bridge saddles to achieve a radius of around 18" or a little more.
 

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
178
Wolfie351 said:
If you're saying the strings are touching EVERY fret, that means you didn't shim the nut enough and your neck has no relief.  Back in the day, we'd cut up soda cans for Floyd shims (both nut and saddle). But now, they're like $2 and available everywhere, make it easier on yourself. You're going to need the saddle shims anyways if you got the 10-16 compound neck

The bridge is an appropriate radius. The nut is also shimmed appropriately, I suppose it may skip the first few frets at the nut but the strings definitely run into multiple frets at the higher frets.
 

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
178
stratamania said:
bruzanhd said:
stratamania said:
Is there any paint in the neck pocket which may be changing the intended angle? If so it may be an idea to clean it out and it may also be that a shim is needed. Also if you are concerned about warranty etc contact Warmoth sales prior to proceeding.
Neck pocket is clean, but I can’t really shim it in reverse. If the angle was too low I could easily shim it with no problem. But I can’t unshim a steep angle if that makes sense.

You can do a reverse shim. You can tilt a neck forwards or backwards with a shim.
https://www.stewmac.com/tonewoods/shop-tonewood-by-instrument/electric-guitar-bodies-and-necks-and-wood/electric-guitar-necks/stewmac-neck-shims-for-guitar/

A good point also from Wolfie351, if you have a 10 -16" compound neck you also need to shim the Floyd Rose bridge saddles to achieve a radius of around 18" or a little more.

Reverse shims sound like a bad idea long term from a stress distribution perspective. also, it would allow for things to get into the neck pocket and cause other issues. The full pocket shims linked are also cut such that the shape wouldn't geometrically line up if used in reverse.
 

stratamania

Senior member
Messages
9,453
bruzanhd said:
stratamania said:
bruzanhd said:
stratamania said:
Is there any paint in the neck pocket which may be changing the intended angle? If so it may be an idea to clean it out and it may also be that a shim is needed. Also if you are concerned about warranty etc contact Warmoth sales prior to proceeding.
Neck pocket is clean, but I can’t really shim it in reverse. If the angle was too low I could easily shim it with no problem. But I can’t unshim a steep angle if that makes sense.

You can do a reverse shim. You can tilt a neck forwards or backwards with a shim.
https://www.stewmac.com/tonewoods/shop-tonewood-by-instrument/electric-guitar-bodies-and-necks-and-wood/electric-guitar-necks/stewmac-neck-shims-for-guitar/

A good point also from Wolfie351, if you have a 10 -16" compound neck you also need to shim the Floyd Rose bridge saddles to achieve a radius of around 18" or a little more.

Reverse shims sound like a bad idea long term from a stress distribution perspective. also, it would allow for things to get into the neck pocket and cause other issues. The full pocket shims linked are also cut such that the shape wouldn't geometrically line up if used in reverse.

A shim is a shim whichever direction they are used so the "problems" you cite would apply to all shims whichever direction used. As for shapes and geometry that is why there are also blanks sold that are not shaped. You may of course use the information provided or not as you choose.

 

Sadie-f

Senior member
Messages
427
bruzanhd said:
Reverse shims sound like a bad idea long term from a stress distribution perspective. also, it would allow for things to get into the neck pocket and cause other issues. The full pocket shims linked are also cut such that the shape wouldn't geometrically line up if used in reverse.
Stress at the neck joint is a function of string height. Normal action = normal load / stress. Even if you set the action extra high, any reasonable number is well within the design capacity of the neck joint.

Trimming the shims will address fitm

From an earlier post
the posts are going to experience much more torque than they should which is going to oval the post holes in no time at all.

The loading is cantilever bending, not torque, except when you adjust the posts when strung up. Even at the height you mention, it's well within the capacity of those screws, (not that you want that here)

In your original post, you say that Warmoth wouldn't handle this as warranty because you've installed parts. Very few people would string up a guitar before finishing the rest of the build (I like to, but I'm not exactly normal). So definitely check with W.

However, I'd just use a shim, the 0.5 degree shim sounds right for the problem you've described, in your shoes, I'd order a 1/4 deg shim as well.



 

Wolfie351

Senior member
Messages
234
Pics would help, here's my non-recessed Warmoth.

lD1WPbX.jpg


You can also remove the bridge, adjust the truss rod so the neck is perfectly straight.  Take a straight edge and put it on the frets so it extends down to the bridge area.  Measure from the straight edge to the body about where the Floyd posts are.  Going from memory, should be 15mm or so
 

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
178
Sadie-f said:
In your original post, you say that Warmoth wouldn't handle this as warranty because you've installed parts. Very few people would string up a guitar before finishing the rest of the build (I like to, but I'm not exactly normal). So definitely check with W.

Yeah I’ve emailed them last week but I’m just giving it time since it was thanksgiving and all. Unfortunately I’m all too familiar with cantilever bending, I’m currently finishing solid mechanics in university, I just skip the technicalities since the nomenclature may be needlessly complicated.

stratamania said:
A shim is a shim whichever direction they are used so the "problems" you cite would apply to all shims whichever direction used. As for shapes and geometry that is why there are also blanks sold that are not shaped. You may of course use the information provided or not as you choose.

Yeah good point. I suppose unshimming a steep angle slightly offends my sensibilities. Of course I’m not worried about applying an appropriate fix if it is warranted, it’s more so that it seems my concern is more related to a tolerance error to me - however unlikely that may be. I’ve also called up a local luthier so we’ll see what they say about it and whether or not it’s good as is or won’t work in the way I had intended.

Wolfie351 said:
Pics would help, here's my non-recessed Warmoth.

lD1WPbX.jpg


You can also remove the bridge, adjust the truss rod so the neck is perfectly straight.  Take a straight edge and put it on the frets so it extends down to the bridge area.  Measure from the straight edge to the body about where the Floyd posts are.  Going from memory, should be 15mm or so

Actually this is what I did to determine that I may have an issue. I tested with strings and a straight edge. Of course, my guitar requires the Floyd does not float, so there may be a slight difference in that value.

So far I’ve contacted W and a luthier so all the “experts” can speak their peace on it and I’ll have a very concrete answer with what the sensible solution will be. In reality it could be that my expectation on how this was supposed to line up may have been erroneous and in that case, between contacting W and a luthier, I should either be humbled or affirmed.

 

stratamania

Senior member
Messages
9,453
It may be that the set up is usually designed for the Floyd to float which I would expect to be the case. Another possibility would be to use a trem stopper of some type to make it dive only without having to be concerned about changing neck angles in order to get the Floyd flush to the body.
 

TBurst Std

Senior member
Messages
2,661
stratamania said:
It may be that the set up is usually designed for the Floyd to float which I would expect to be the case. Another possibility would be to use a trem stopper of some type to make it dive only without having to be concerned about changing neck angles in order to get the Floyd flush to the body.
This is what I have been thinking, but I’m no Floyd expert.  I’m curious OP, if you float the bridge, do you still have the issue.  The distance to float a bridge  is quite close to action height (fret to string) . Not floating it may be the reason for your dilemma
 

Wolfie351

Senior member
Messages
234
I missed the part where OP said they didn't want to it to float, there shouldn't be any neck angle at all. This would have been an off-the-menu request, does your Warmoth invoice note this OP?
 

TheOtherEric

Active member
Messages
63
This is a normal and completely predictable issue. If you DON'T want the trem to float, you should have asked for a non-angled pocket. But here's the deal -- even if you want it to float, the standard angled pocket raises it excessively.  I just went through this on a non-Warmoth body, and added a 1 degree Stewmac shim, which will lower the bridge by 0.16".  So if that's enough, then just by a 1 degree shim. Yes it's installed reverse but so what.

Anyone know what angle body manufacturers (like Warmoth) use in their neck pocket for a typical top-mounted OFR?
 

TheGreatRedDragon

Active member
Messages
73
Wolfie351 said:
I missed the part where OP said they didn't want to it to float, there shouldn't be any neck angle at all. This would have been an off-the-menu request, does your Warmoth invoice note this OP?

I've asked for it in the past (specifically so I could have a finished Showcase body with a non-recessed Floyd) and was given a hard "no."
 

bruzanhd

Senior member
Messages
178
TheOtherEric said:
This is a normal and completely predictable issue. If you DON'T want the trem to float, you should have asked for a non-angled pocket. But here's the deal -- even if you want it to float, the standard angled pocket raises it excessively.  I just went through this on a non-Warmoth body, and added a 1 degree Stewmac shim, which will lower the bridge by 0.16".  So if that's enough, then just by a 1 degree shim. Yes it's installed reverse but so what.

Anyone know what angle body manufacturers (like Warmoth) use in their neck pocket for a typical top-mounted OFR?

They say the angle is 1 degree.

Wolfie351 said:
I missed the part where OP said they didn't want to it to float, there shouldn't be any neck angle at all. This would have been an off-the-menu request, does your Warmoth invoice note this OP?

The angled pocket is default. It is a special request apparently if you want a non angled pocket.

stratamania said:
It may be that the set up is usually designed for the Floyd to float which I would expect to be the case. Another possibility would be to use a trem stopper of some type to make it dive only without having to be concerned about changing neck angles in order to get the Floyd flush to the body.

Yeah I fear this may in fact be the case. I have no interest in playing a floating trem guitar. Regardless of whether or not it is floating though, it still seems slightly too steep.

In hindsight I wish I would’ve known to order without the angle, and then just shimmed it accordingly if necessary. I’m surprised this topic is not frequently documented. I would think that lots of people before me have wanted non floating Floyd’s. Maybe people knew to order without the angle? Wish there was more information on warmoth’s site about this particular setup.
 

stratamania

Senior member
Messages
9,453
Perhaps a Tremol-no may be worth investigating.

https://www.tremol-no.com/default.asp

I have Floyds and they all float. Generally the main reason for some people not to have a floating Floyd is to use a D-Tuna though some may have other reasons to want dive only.
 
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