Noise. The Search Continues.

[leejord]

On 200 amp setting and many others there is decimal point.however on continuity setting, it starts with 1 in left corner then if good continuity ( I think) goes to 000.by the way, you getting much work done. Appreciate your efforts

 

[Firebird211]

I would try the next click over to the left from the continuity setting, which would be the 200 ohm setting.  That is the lowest ohm meter setting you have.  I am not surprised that the continuity setting doesn't pull off a decimal point, but that setting should.  The problem is all $20 and $30 dollar meters I have seen look just like what you already have.  The meter I have at home will pull one decimal point 0.0, the one at work will pull 0.0000.  One decimal point is good enough.  I am only happy when the 0.1 doesn't show up.  Give that a shot, and don't use the continuity setting anymore for this application.  There will be no audible beep, but you will still see the reading in ohms.

 

[Jusatele]

I look at the pot, but cannot tell from the low res picture if the outer shaft is metal

what kind of control plate are we using, is it powder coated?

 

[Firebird211]

I almost wish I could just see the thing in person, and it wouldn't take me long to fix it if I could just get my hands on it.  Leejord is going to name his first hemorrhoid after this guitar.  Distanced troubleshooting has it's limitations, I hope he is having a breakthrough.

 

[Jusatele]

I almost wish I could just see the thing in person, and it wouldn't take me long to fix it if I could just get my hands on it.  Leejord is going to name his first hemorrhoid after this guitar.  Distanced troubleshooting has it's limitations, I hope he is having a breakthrough.

I think the answer lies in the fact that touching the metal knobs makes it go quiet, I could be wrong but sounds like a grounding issue but as you said, it is miles away

 

[Firebird211]

For sure, the symptom points right at the problem.

 

[leejord]

Sorry for late reply.just back from work.pots are CTS.bridge and contol plate are from warmth (vintage tele 6 saddle chrome,tele control plate chrome).will try 200 ohm setting.thanks

 

[pabloman]

I love the needle in the haystack as much as the next guy but maybe it would just be easier to dismantle everything and start over. :dontknow:

 

[leejord]

Before I do that ,bit more info. Used 200 ohm setting on meter. Every reading was 0.2 to ground of jack including back of pots, screws attaching bridge plate,screws attaching control plate,body of 5-way selector,height adjusting screws of bridge and neck pickup ( note no reading from mid pickup height adjusting screws though did get beep when testing continuity of actual pickup). Shaft of both pots and on/off/on switch was 0.3.  0.2 for all positions of selector switch. Chrome knobs,control plate,bridge plate all had readings greater than 5.again, touching both knobs eradicated noise. Should I try disconnecting middle pickup first and see if improves then disconnect something else or do I just start again. Hard to know what I would do different second time if don't know where went wrong first.will upload more pictures.hopefully better resolution

 

[Firebird211]

That is cool that the meter has a usefull ohms meter in it...phew.  Now that your rocking that extra decimal point do this:  check ohms reading on plate, check 1 inch section, then keep spreading the leads apart until it's measuring it end to end (measure the side stuff is mounted to).  Notice how much the resistance is increasing due to that distance.  If it is reading anything more than 0.2 for a couple of inches I would suspect the plate is a crappy conductor.  If this is the case I would cover the back of the plate that your pots and switches are mounted to in copper shielded tape.  If it is only quiet when you are touching the knobs that is telling me that the ground plane that your controls are touching is not tightly grounded to the rest of the guitar via low resistance.  Every ohm, or fraction of, that shows up will equate to that much more noise that doesn't get grounded out in the circuit, but when you touch it you are grounding it.  I don't know if it is what everybody else does, but I make sure everything measures 0.0 ohms.  I don't get noise when I have covered those bases. The plate is the most critical part as it is the most central grounding point in the system.  After those ground points are reading 0.0 with respect to eachother, then I would enhance the conductivity to the bridge and the jack with copper wire if noise persists.  Even though those parts are farther away from the control plate, they will still read 0.0 ohms.

 

[leejord]

Will check plate soon. Does the copper tapes adhesive have to be conductive?

 

[Firebird211]

It's not conductive at all, but you do want to have most of that conductive surface break through to the plate.  You have your meter to check for sure.  If the pots, switches,  and screws don't inadvertantly connect the two use a pointy object like an awl and make many indentations in the copper tape.  Poke around with the meter and you will know for sure it's connected solid.  The plate should be good enough on it's own, but the ohmeter will let you know if it is good conductive metal or just for looks.  Any significant amount of silver in the plate would kick coppers arse in the terms of conductivity.  If it reads 0.0 ohms end to end, then you are doing good.  If not, the copper tape will make that happen.  Which makes me think of something else, is the plate coated with something non-conductive?

 

[leejord]

Tested  undersurface of control plate.probes 1inch apart get readings b/w 3-6(constantly changing).2inches apart- cycling b/w 15-30 approximate.higher readings further apart.will attach some tape and remeasure

 

[Firebird211]

B.I.N.G.O :icon_thumright:

But I have to wonder now, if it was that bad, maybe you should scuff it with sandpaper before using the tape. :icon_scratch:  It has to be coated with some kind of anti-corrosion film.

 

[leejord]

already filed under surface prior to applying tape. Readings on tape 0.2 ( actually dont get lower reading even when touch probes together.) Readings on exposed control plate improved but only to ~5. Have noticed when tone knob completely down, noise significantly better though does improve more when i hold vol knob as well. pre conductive tape photos enclosed 

 

[leejord]

Just noticed that if vol knob completely up and tone knob completely down, then no no noise. Any turning down of vol knob and noise begins again

 

[Firebird211]

With the tone turned down the tone circuit is draining the noise to ground, since that noise is in the upper tone range.  Your meter shouldn't need to be zero'd because it's digital, but I guess if you read 0.2 with the leads together you can assume 0.2 is as good as zero.  I have tested a 12 inch stretch of copper tape and it doesn't register on my meter. I think you will be in better shape now using the tape.  Something about the pics were killing my computer.  I looked over the wiring a little, and it looks pretty clean :icon_thumright:.  From there I would continue to check the ohms from the copper plate to other ground points, and get them as low as possible. I'll keep looking at the pics.  You know,  I can't tell if it's wired wrong, but I think you should reheat some of the dull colored solder points, especially if they are ground wires. You might see a difference on the ohm meter readings too.  The only other thing I am noticing is that the ground connections are getting chained around instead of localizing at one point.  Adding copper should of helped, but you might want to consider merging multiple ground points in one big connection that goes right to the face of the copper plate if nothing else seems to help.  I do see most of your wires are already copper. :doh:  What's with the noise?

 

[leejord]

got my awl out and pocked many indentations into copper tape. all measurements were 0.2 to both main ground lug and to ground of jack. measurements on outside ( non-copper taped side) of control plate are around 3.0. improved but not great. should these measurements be 0.2 as well. do i have to bite the bullet and spend big on callaghan parts or similar. Noise persisting. I did notice however that touching knobs or control plate only marginally diminishes noise now. however if I now touch bridge plate, noise lessens more significantly. suppose this means i should copper tape underside of bridge plate. Im sure most people putting together a tele dont have this problem. did i just luck out with these particular control and bridge plates or is there something as yet undiscovered going on 

 

[Cagey]

I went back to the beginning of the thread, and see you have some single-coil pickups installed. You should be aware that those will always make noise. There's no getting away from it without going to some "noiseless" pickups. All the grounding and shielding in the world won't help them, as you essentially have a 1/4 mile log antenna exposed. Without the common-mode rejection of opposing coils, the only thing keeping you from hearing Radio Free Europe is a diode and the frequency response of your amplifier. But, it's perfectly designed to amplify lower frequencies, such as power line emissions.

Long story short: you may have to live with the noise, or change your pickups.

 

[Firebird211]

Yeah, I am not sure if you got some standard noise, or a little extra.  Either way, you must be improving it a little.  Since the plate seems to be plated in something that doesn't really conduct good, 3 ohms from outside to inner copper is way better than it was. You would be more concerned about the amount of ohms from the back plate to the knobs.  You don't want to copper tape under the bridge, that will kill your tone in a way you don't want, and won't solve any grounding issue.  I know this isn't always popular, but you could use copper tape to seal in the compartment and overlap just enough to touch the plate.  Use the awl to link the pieces of tape with eachother.  Use the ohmmeter to verify as you are poking the tiny indentations.  You are having way more problems than would be typical, the problem(s) could still be hidden from you. I would almost have to hear the extent of noise myself to see if it is normal.  All internal grounding points should be 0.2, in your case, if they are all the same with respect to one another, there isn't a whole lot more you can do.  Use the humbucker as your quiet "idle" reference, and if you have coated strings they won't allow conductivity on the 3 wound strings (just something to be aware of).