Instead of a raffle

[line6man]

Competitions are not 100% fair EVER, but they are a hell of a lot more fair than random chance any day of the week.  

I disagree.

A completely random drawing in a raffle is the most fair way of doing things. Everyone has an equal chance at winning, and there is no bias.
A competition OTOH, whether fair or unfair, is unfair more-so than a raffle drawing, because there can exist biases, and some people may be at greater advantage than others for various reasons.

 

[kboman]

I like dNA's and Biggus' posts above. Nothing is more fair than something random, really. Blind chance means everyone has an equal chance, and the drawings (cough cough) are a better way to achieve equal chance to win. The part where you can buy more than one ticket obviously skews this somewhat, but this is in my opinion balanced out by costing more to do and adding to the end sum that can be won.

Contests are fine when they are about objective performance - say, whoever runs 100 metres the fastest. A guitar designing contest is not about that as far as I can see.

I agree that it can help fuel creativity, which is a Good Thing, but maybe it should be done more as a GOTM thing?

 

[hannaugh]

I honestly cannot believe I have to explain the concept of a contest to you guys, but what I am REALLY astonished at is that you can't see that blind chance isn't fair.

In a competition, certain individuals have an edge, and that edge leads them to win.  Maybe that edge is that they have natural talent, maybe it's that they are popular, maybe it's that they have worked their butt off to be good at whatever it is.  Is this 100% fair?  No, but on the other hand, random chance isn't fair AT ALL.  That's why they say "life isn't fair", because people accidentally get killed and rat bastards inherit lots of money all the time.  There is nothing you can do to get out of it, bad things will happen to good people and good things happen to bad people.  That is the nature of random chance.  In a contest, if you work hard and try your best, and with a little bit of luck, you get rewarded by winning.  In random chance, it's all luck.  

 

[kboman]

Mh. That's semantics, that, and I'm too tired for semantics. But basically, what you just did was add your moral/ethical values to the word "fair". I used it to to define something to be equally likely to happen to several different individuals. Which in itself is a value judgement of course. Personally, I never use the expression "life isn't fair" - life is life, and what I feel about it is pretty much irrelevant.

I'm a bigger believer in cooperation than in competition, so I'll just fold here and go eat something instead before I type badly and offend someone. But it's an interesting discussion.

 

[hannaugh]

Fair also means just, and just is a matter of morality, always has been and always will be. 

No one is required to compete.  People who wanna do this, please offer your support.

The raffle will still go on. 

If you somehow think that random chance is fair and working hard to achieve a goal is not, then I cannot help you in this discussion or in life.  Sorry bout that. 

 

[Kublai]

Even if this was done with anonymous entries, it is still very easy to email/pm other members with your entry. I think it would be too easy to "work the system" and trade votes in private. No offense intended at all, but I will not participate in this competition.

 

[Alfang]

So the bottom line is this, if you got enough people who wanna enter the design competition, do it.

I remember a lot of skeptics on the first raffle that couldn't buy a ticket fast enough for the second one.

 

[hannaugh]

I honestly don't care if it is done anonymously or not.  If you get a vote or two because you're a nice person, then more power to you.  God forbid being a nice person comes back to help you out.  If that's how you guys want to do it, then fine, but I don't really think it would have a huge impact. 

 

[GoDrex]

For once I totally agree with Hannaugh. I don't get the problem with a contest. People hold all sorts of contests based on taste. If you do it anonymously I don't see how people would know that it's T00bLizard's design and therefore automatically vote against him, because... you know.  :laughing7:

I'm just wondering how much I would think is too steep for me to enter this sort of contest, knowing that my taste is out of step with what I think the voters want. I'll have to think about that. Can a contest like this raise enough cash, so I'd actually WANT to win.

But like she said, no one is forcing me to enter. I'm really surprised by SuperT00bs reaction to this btw.

 

[Nando Vallart]

Hannah, if you want to see those about and those against, make a pool with 2 choices: yes and no
Believe will be a lot easier to figure it out

 

[Justinginn]

Here's what I'd do: set up a thread where people can sign up so that you've got a list of people who would actually want to do it. From there, decide if you'll be able to raise enough money to actually pay for the guitar or to pay for just a portion of it (say $500). Figure out how much to charge for tickets. Then just set up the competition, figure out how you're gonna keep it fair (you can consult with other people about this, but I'd try to consult mainly with the people who wanted to do it so that you didn't get flack from the people who think it's a bad idea). Run the competition. Let the winner post his guitar. We'll see if it works or fails. I think it'll work great. I'd love to enter but I don't know if I'd have the kind of money to spend. It'll depend on how much tickets cost. Hope it works out well and I love the idea.  ccasion14:

 

[kboman]

Fair also means just, and just is a matter of morality, always has been and always will be. 

And morality is a matter of opinion, however one feels about that.

What my brain failed to put forward coherently before was that there is a great big difference between having an equal chance of winning and deserving to win. A very nice person down on hard luck may well deserve to win a drawing or contest more than me, and indeed most likely someone does. But if this is a factor, it should be made clear in the rules: "Note, votes on homeless people count twice" or something.

We disagree on the meaning of the word "fair" it seems, or maybe what the meaning means. For me it's not about "right" and "wrong" as such, for me the moral aspect is simply equal chance or carrying equal weight - a simple concept with enormous consequences. I don't like it confused with worthiness, it's something which provokes me greatly: nothing pisses me off more than assigning different value to different human beings.

Here's a few questions: If it's a guitar design contest, what are we really voting for? Gary's guitar because Gary is a nice guy, or Gary's guitar because it looks really nifty? And if it wins, what does that mean - that's it's somehow the best guitar? How does one decide what "best" is in a guitar?
These are not new questions, their cousins are asked around the time of all music and/or movie awards and are the fundamental reason why I generally disregard awards: it's just opinion, and opinions are like a*seholes - round and hairy.

Well... lots of words, not necessarily to do with guitars. I'm trying to clarify myself, not to put down the idea itself. I am not assigning "right" or "wrong" in the above paragraph (well, maybe a little in the last bit...).

I'm still too tired for this, even after dinner.

No one is required to compete.  People who wanna do this, please offer your support.

The raffle will still go on. 

As I believe I have stated from the beginning - good! Let's do both! I'd love to see people really stretch their imaginations with the design contest, and now I can finally afford to take part in the drawing after my life has started working again.
I was put off by the idea of this contest replacing the drawing, as the thread title suggested, but if people want to do it then go ahead, of course!

If you somehow think that random chance is fair and working hard to achieve a goal is not, then I cannot help you in this discussion or in life.  Sorry bout that. 

There is nothing to be sorry about, thank you. I don't really understand why you feel I would need help?

 

[GoDrex]

Here's a few questions: If it's a guitar design contest, what are we really voting for? Gary's guitar because Gary is a nice guy, or Gary's guitar because it looks really nifty? And if it wins, what does that mean - that's it's somehow the best guitar? How does one decide what "best" is in a guitar?

well it definitely should be anon.  - though some people that know me might guess mine.

I think I'd vote based "nifty-ness" and what I like about guitars.

But here's another question - should the people entering be allowed to vote? I mean we'd all vote for ourselves anyway, unless some of us are really weird. Basically it would be up to all people not entered in the contest.


btw - I have no idea how I'd "design" my guitar anyway, since the builders I'm aware of don't have the shapes I need.

 

[kboman]

I should note that Gary was just an arbitrary example on the above post. I'm sure he is not an arbitrary example in real life :icon_biggrin:

Good question by the way! Do we pick a non participating "jury" or can anyone vote? Or something else? I hope I'd vote by gut feeling or for something really really unique.

 

[GoDrex]

I think I have a totally super cool idea for my dream guitar - but I've got no good way to express it in a satisfactory way.

 

[hannaugh]

I was thinking that anyone who was a forum member prior to the contest can vote, and I think instead of voting normally, we would have to just make a thread and write down your three votes, that way we know people aren't just telling their friends to join the forum and vote for them.  We vote for our top three (that eliminates the problem of people voting for themselves).

The rule would be simple: vote for the guitar that you want to see made into a reality. 

I think instead of saying it has to be in kisekae or Photoshop or whatever, maybe if you want, it could be a written description with some visual aids.  As an example, the entry could be like this:

I want a Tele that looks like this, but with a wenge neck, humbucker in the bridge, and the following pickguard:

 
That's not a detailed rendering or anything, but you get enough of an idea that you understand the entry.

 

[Justinginn]

I think that for anyone to be interested you'd have to realize the system is flawed, all ethics aside, and just go for it. Obviously not for some of us on the forum. But that's ok. Yall can sit out and everyone will be happy.  :hello2:

 

[Dan025]

Competitions are not 100% fair EVER, but they are a hell of a lot more fair than random chance any day of the week. 

How could anything be MORE fair than something TOTALLY RANDOM? Sorry Hannaugh, but I don't get your logic on this at all.



Personally, I agree with most of the points people have made about a design contest - there's definitely not going to be an equal chance for anyone to win. I think that's a given.
That being said, I don't think that's a flaw. That's the difference between a contest and a drawing (I don't know what all this "raffle" talk is about cough cough)
Now the title of the thread clearly states "Instead of a raffle." So it's not hard to understand why people might think "Hey, you're taking away my chance at winning something" if you replace the drawing which, as far I understand, is still only going to be held once a year unless a different consensus has been reached.

All that being said, if you want to have a contest in addition to the existing drawing, and it doesn't jeopardize the opportunity for anyone to win their dream guitar in said drawing, then have fun. Whoever wants to do it will participate and nobody will twist your arm to make you.
People's resistance to this idea is not that it's a bad idea, but that they feel like they are having THEIR chance at winning taken away - whereas Hannaugh, you sound like you basically want to do it because it will increase your chance of winning. (and I don't mean this as an attack or to be personal or rude, I promise. no disrespect)
Does that make sense?

maybe you already got this but the key word was competition. meaning to compete. and the idea of ramdom not being fair is easy to grasp, competition recognises talent and efforts but random rewards for no reason whatsoever. random doesn't distribute good fortune or bad fortune evenly, in theory it should given enough time and events but thats not reality, and the distribution of good or bad fortune has nothing to do with a person being deserving.

i like the idea of a contest people enter contests all the time, i dont see why there is so much opposition, if you think you dont have a fair shot at winning then dont spend the money on a ticket, whats so hard to understand about that, let other people have there fun.

 

[Alfang]

heres a thought I'll just throw in, do it like an NBA draft.  everyone ( or whatever group of voters you decide) casts their votes for 2 or 3 guitars, for each vote a guitar recieves, you put a coresponding number of ping pong balls or tickets or pieces of paper in a hat. so the most popular guitar might have 100 tickets so to speak, the least favorite would have at least 1. then do a random drawing to pick a winner. so that in the end, everyone has a chance, some people will have a better chance.

And Dan your right, totally random is the most fair, my idea will skew it a little or a lot i don't know

Even with my lack of computer guitar design skills, I would enter if my ONE vote gave me a slim chance, somebody's narative only, would at least get their own vote, and therefore a chance to win.

I know some of you are thinking OMG Alfang finnaly had a good idea.  or not

 

[bigguspickus]

I'm interested in entering the proposed contest. I still think it's a good idea.

The NBA draft thing sounds interesting, Alfang, but the execution seems like it would be difficult.