Voodoo finish, Part Deux

[bagman67]

Ahoy, mateys -

With an eye toward replicating the photo I posted the other day (black and red striped grain on ash), I went down to my local Woodcraft shop yesterday and procured some materials to do a test run, so I don't end up beta-testing my finish ideas on a final product:

A 3/4" x 4" x 48" plank of ash for making samples
Mixol universal tints in black, red, blue, and purple
Lacquer thinner to serve as medium for applying the dyes per jackthehack's blue J-bass project
Timber-mate Water-based wood filler in the charmingly-named "rustic ebony" color.  That'd be "black," to anyone outside the marketing department at Timber-mate.
Deft rattle-can lacquer sanding sealer

I'll procure Deft rattle-can lacquer to topcoat all this later this week, but I won't be in a position to need it for a while in any case.

I would welcome feedback on the viability of my proposed schedule, and answers/opinions to the questions interlarded among the steps:

Starter question:  What kind of gloves work best for wiping on the tint via lacquer thinner?  Will latex disintegrate when exposed to toluene, etc.?  Any opinions on nitrile, vinyl, etc.?

Okay, by the numbers:

1 - Sand (should I go to 180? 220? finer still?); wipe with lacquer thinner or naptha to clear sanding dust (sorry, no compressed air around here)

2 - Apply black dye - wet surface with medium, then apply the dye mix itself

3 - allow to dry, then sand back to expose soft grain; clear the sanding dust again

4 - Apply colored dye - should I wet the entire surface again, or would that tend to make the black dye bleed into the exposed grain?  I suppose if my colored dye is suspended in the same medium, if there's any danger of bleeding it won't be eliminated by not wetting.  Maybe I'm answering my own question here...

5 - once second color has dried, apply lacquer sealer - how many coats, how heavy-handed should I go here, how long between coats?

6 - apply grain filler according to product package instructions; repeat as necessary to get maximum fill and surface smoothness

7 - wipe once more to clear of sanding dust

8 - Begin applying lacquer coats

Thanks in advance, and retrospectively to all who have generously supplied helpful information and encouragement so far.  And obviously there are numerous sub-steps to many of these, including the ever-popular "Swear profusely, then fix whatever it was you screwed up."

Best regards,

bagman

 

[bagman67]

Here's the sample again, for reference purposes:

 

[jackthehack]

I'd run the steps a bit different:

1.) You don't really need to sand the body out of the box to start finishing, it'll come sanded to #220.
2.) Since you're using black grain filler, there's no need to dye black/sand back to start; you would use that technique on a figured maple top that wouldn't take grain filler to make the black.
3.) Do the dark red dye FIRST; when happy with coloration, shoot a couple of wash coats of lacquer or sanding sealer.
4.) NOW will the grain with the black grain filler. This will probably take several applications/sand backs to completely fill/level. I would strongly recommend using an oil based rather than a water based grain filler. I haven't used the brand of filler you mention, but the StewMac brand dries so hard that you could have issues sanding back through the wood you dyed red getting it back leveled.
5.) Now shoot with a couple of coats of sanding sealer.
6.) Follow with coats of gloss lacquer.

 

[bagman67]

Thanks, Jack -

Confession:  I bought a non-W body from a fella in Georgia who makes bodies at a much lower price than Warmoth, reasoning that I'll feel better wrecking a $100 body than a $250 body, if I shank this off the tee.

Permit me to summarize how I think you told me I should proceed:

- Go with black dye; sand back; then colored dye; then seal; then fill with (preferably) an oil-based filler.

- Shoot a couple coats of sealer; then start the gloss lacquer coats.

Did I get that right?

Also, I'm doing samples in several colors:  Red, blue, purple, and then I thought I'd try an amber toner instead of colored dye on one sample.  I'll keep y'all posted.

bagman

 

[phred]

That is so cool.  :icon_thumright:  Can this be done w/o spray equipment?

Scott

Here's the sample again, for reference purposes:

 

[jackthehack]

Can be done with rattle cans...

 

[-CB-]

rattlecan?  no problemo

 

[bagman67]

I've begun my samples on an ash plank I got last weekend - I'll have photos posted later tonight.

 

[bagman67]

Okay, so I've begun.  I began with a bare plank of ash, sanded to 220.  I marked it into 8 sample areas, and then tinted four of them with black Mixol tint in lacquer thinner until I got what looked like a nice, deep black.  I sanded back, and then tested three different colored washes in one black-tinted sample area, and in a non-black-tinted area for comparison.  My color washes also consist of Mixol tints in lacquer thinner:  Red, blue, and purple.  I did not fill the wood prior to using any of the washes - all photos here are tinted lacquer thinner on bare wood.

Among the things I have learned so far, I am quite sure this is not the way to achieve the striped finish - the black washes are just not heavy enough to get me there.  Perhaps the india ink approach will get me there - and I can certainly do more sampling on the other side of my plank to find out.  In any case, I am very intrigued by the things I have seen so far.

Here is the plank I began with, kerfed to keep the tints from bleeding from one sample to the next.  This would have been a great idea if I weren't so sloppy in applying my wash coats - as it is, I got some color  from a couple of the sample areas into their neighbors, as the subsequent photos will show.

Here is the plank after one wash of black:

And after about seven washes of black:

I then sanded back to expose the white lumber under the dye:

I proceeded to do two samples per color, one on a square that had black dye on it, sanded back, and the other on an undyed sample square, thus:

Blue with black:

Blue without black:

Purple with black:

Purple without black:

Red with black:

Red without black:

Looks like fun, eh?  Now I get to try my hand at filling and sanding.  Should be a blast.

 

[CrackedPepper]

If you are looking for opinions the Red with black and Blue with black look pretty nice.  A little more black under the red might achieve the look you are looking for. 

 

[dNA]

assuming you're going for a match of the orginal finish, i think a bit heavier on the black underneath red would get you closest. But i think black under purple looks the best.

 

[Keyser Soze]

You might be closer than you think.  Look at the results after staining black, sanding, but before staining with color. 

If you could limit coloration to only those areas where the black has been removed you are there.

So, try again, but this time before sanding back seal the black with some lightly thinned clear coat.  Ideally you will want to use a solvent for the next coat of stain that will not penetrate the clear (or a sealer that will otherwise resist subsequent staining.)

 

[bagman67]

You might be closer than you think.  Look at the results after staining black, sanding, but before staining with color. 

If you could limit coloration to only those areas where the black has been removed you are there.

So, try again, but this time before sanding back seal the black with some lightly thinned clear coat.  Ideally you will want to use a solvent for the next coat of stain that will not penetrate the clear (or a sealer that will otherwise resist subsequent staining.)

Thanks, Keyser - your wisdom is of great value.

As I look at the original example, it looks as though the finisher might have followed something like your method, but the other way around:  Dyed with red, then sealed, then sanded back slightly and stained in black.  The original appears to have red in the grain pores, and black on the softer wood.  One more method to test on the Plank of Doom, I reckon.

And now, back to work.

 

[GratefullyRedd]

little late but i use nitrile gloves when I work with laquer

 

[phred]

I'm not snaking your build thread, but I'm going to do the same thing on my Tele. This is the coolest finish IMO. I hope to learn from this thread.

Scott

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I'd flip the board over and try a black grain fill followed by red dye to check out how that works.  I am still having trouble with the order of events with this one.  I might be mixed up about what you want, but if you want it smooth, the grain filling is going to be a whole lot of un-fun. 
Patrick

 

[bagman67]

Yep, I am not looking forward to the grain fill, but I do indeed want a glassy surface when I'm done, so I recognize there's no sidestepping it.

I'm going to seal the red-without-black square, then fill with black grain filler, sand back slightly, and then try a black wash, and see if that gets me  near where I want to go.

Regrettably, the guy who did the original sample I'm trying to emulate has not responded to my email, otherwise I'd share his secrets with you.

Thanks

bagman

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Perhaps I am just a heavy handed sander, but I went through the sealer quicker than the grain fill.  If it is that Stew Mac stuff, you have to sand it 12-24 hours later, preferably 12, or it turns into granite.  I would try a fill first on one of the sections, just to see how it goes.
Patrick

 

[bagman67]

I would try a fill first on one of the sections, just to see how it goes.

Fortunately, I have several colored squares to work with, and the other side of the board, so I can do some pretty granular experiments, e.g., seal and then fill on one; fill, sand, then seal the other - and so forth.

In any case, the blue with black and the purple with black both look pretty cool in their own right, despite being very different from what I set out to accomplish.  Accordingly, if at some point I get fed up with pursuing the deep black with colored stripes, I have a very nice fallback position.

Thanks for the continuing input.

bagman

 

[phred]

What does the sanding sealer do? Does it keep the colors from blending? I have gotten about the same results as bagman with black dye, grain filler and red dye.

Scott