Strat Head style

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

But again, how much of that really matters?

How much? None at all. The string can be 75 miles long, but it still has to be at a specific tension for its diameter and mass in order to vibrate at a given frequency at a given length.

Yeah, but it now has 75 extra miles of string (past the nut or bridge) it can stretch during a bend.  You don't think that would make bend sound or feel different?  Not to mention, how many wraps around a Gotoh would it take to get 75 miles of string to get to pitch for the little 25.5" or 24 3/4" we care about between the but and bridge?

 

[richship]

How much? None at all. The string can be 75 miles long, but it still has to be at a specific tension for its diameter and mass in order to vibrate at a given frequency at a given length.

But unless you are using a locking nut, when you stretch the string by bending or whammy, you pull some of the string from behind the nut and things will change. The string will bend easier (the length behind the nut taking up the tension increase), but the pitch won't change as much for the same reason.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Exactly.

 

[Cagey]

Yeah, but it now has 75 extra miles of string (past the nut or bridge) it can stretch during a bend.  You don't think that would make bend sound or feel different? 

You have to realize that the string past the nut or bridge is not a buffer or spring zone or reservoir or anything like that. It's at the same tension as the speaking length. There's no "reserve springiness" sitting there waiting to be taken advantage of.

If you can't picture it in your head, you're just going to have to trust me. The scale length and tension are the thing, not the string length. Even a small difference in scale length is noticeable - that's why some guys like Gibson's 24 3/4" scale. It's noticeably slinkier than the 25 1/2" Fender scale even though there's only 3/4" difference. It takes less tension to bring the shorter scale to tune.

 

[line6man]

You have to realize that the string past the nut or bridge is not a buffer or spring zone or reservoir or anything like that. It's at the same tension as the speaking length. There's no "reserve springiness" sitting there waiting to be taken advantage of.

Ideally, that would be the case. In practice, however, the tension can be different on both sides of the nut, depending on how slipperly the nut is.

Example: Have you ever tried tuning up a bass with a detuner? You have to tune flat and then flip the detuner down and up to clear the tension, otherwise your E will be sharp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krL94H-wwDw

 

[Disco Scottie]

how many wraps around a Gotoh would it take to get 75 miles of string to get to pitch for the little 25.5" or 24 3/4" we care about between the but and bridge?

I think I know who to ask:

He's pretty good at licks, so he must know a thing or two about string tension.

 

[Cagey]

You have to realize that the string past the nut or bridge is not a buffer or spring zone or reservoir or anything like that. It's at the same tension as the speaking length. There's no "reserve springiness" sitting there waiting to be taken advantage of.

Ideally, that would be the case. In practice, however, the tension can be different on both sides of the nut, depending on how slipperly the nut is.

Example: Have you ever tried tuning up a bass with a detuner? You have to tune flat and then flip the detuner down and up to clear the tension, otherwise your E will be sharp.

If the tension is different on both sides of the nut, you've got an instrument that needs work.

Detuners aren't a Good Thing because they can't be relied upon to be consistent due to mechanical inefficiencies. They're a gimmick for the lazy who aren't as concerned about being in tune as they are about changing tension in a hurry. With a properly constructed instrument, it's easier to simply change tension with the pegs, and you'll be more accurate.

That problem isn't isolated to basses or guitars with detuners; put a set of Klusons or any "vintage" tuners on a guitar and you have the same problem. You learn to detune then tune up because of backlash issues. It's a real pain in the ass because it adds to your tuning time.

 

[line6man]

If the tension is different on both sides of the nut, you've got an instrument that needs work.

Detuners aren't a Good Thing because they can't be relied upon to be consistent due to mechanical inefficiencies. They're a gimmick for the lazy who aren't as concerned about being in tune as they are about changing tension in a hurry. With a properly constructed instrument, it's easier to simply change tension with the pegs, and you'll be more accurate.

What the hell are you talking about?
A great many professional musicians (Billy Sheehan, Tony Franklin, Michael Manring, etc.) have been using detuners for years, and I know a ton of players have been putting them on all of their 4 string basses for the past 20 years. I've never heard anyone complain that they aren't a "good thing" for their bass. The detuners can be a bit finicky to get in tune initially, but they stay in tune very well once you've done it.
In any case, this is all completely and utterly irrelevant. The point is, the tension can be different on each side of the nut. Whether you want to call it a poorly made instrument or something else, it's still true in at least some cases.

 

[Cagey]

If you have a situation where the tension is different on either side of the nut, you have a situation where you can't rely on the instrument staying in tune. It's an old problem that has been more or less solved through the use of locking tuners in addition to either roller nuts or at least very low friction nuts. What you're describing is a nut that hangs up, and that's NFG. It's easier to get away with on bass than it is on guitar, simply because humans have a tough time hearing low frequencies, so they can be sloppier. But, on guitar it can be so obvious that people will actually go so far as to install Floyd-Rose locking nuts to keep that from being an issue.

 

[line6man]

If you have a situation where the tension is different on either side of the nut, you have a situation where you can't rely on the instrument staying in tune. It's an old problem that has been more or less solved through the use of locking tuners in addition to either roller nuts or at least very low friction nuts. What you're describing is a nut that hangs up, and that's NFG. It's easier to get away with on bass than it is on guitar, simply because humans have a tough time hearing low frequencies, so they can be sloppier. But, on guitar it can be so obvious that people will actually go so far as to install Floyd-Rose locking nuts to keep that from being an issue.

That doesn't matter, have you not read what I wrote?

You said:

You have to realize that the string past the nut or bridge is not a buffer or spring zone or reservoir or anything like that. It's at the same tension as the speaking length. There's no "reserve springiness" sitting there waiting to be taken advantage of.

I said:

the tension can be different on each side of the nut.

You have just confirmed what I said by saying:

If you have a situation where the tension is different on either side of the nut, you have a situation where you can't rely on the instrument staying in tune. It's an old problem that has been more or less solved through the use of locking tuners in addition to either roller nuts or at least very low friction nuts. What you're describing is a nut that hangs up, and that's NFG. It's easier to get away with on bass than it is on guitar, simply because humans have a tough time hearing low frequencies, so they can be sloppier. But, on guitar it can be so obvious that people will actually go so far as to install Floyd-Rose locking nuts to keep that from being an issue.

:tard:

 

[Cagey]

I wasn't confirming what you said, I was presenting a relational test, as evidenced by the "if" statement. Re-read the whole thing, slowly. It'll make more sense.

 

[line6man]

I wasn't confirming what you said, I was presenting a relational test, as evidenced by the "if" statement. Re-read the whole thing, slowly. It'll make more sense.

This is pointless bullshit.
Whether for the better or for the worse, an instrument can have a string with more tension on one side of the nut than the other. Are you going to acknowledge the fact, or give me a legitimate reason for how it's not possible?

 

[Strat Avenger]

Cagey knows what he's talking about.

It is NOT possible for string tension to be different on each side of the nut. A string has to be tightened up to a specific tension to produce a given note BETWEEN the nut and bridge.

In other words, on a 25-1/2 inch scale guitar, a SPECIFIC amount of tension on the 6th string  is required to produce an open 'E' between the nut and bridge. The string tension between the nut and bridge will be NO different than the tension between the nut and tuning peg.

As for D-tuners; if you play a 5-string bass, you don't need a D--tuner.  For guitar, it makes D-drops quicker, but fine tuning is still going to be necessary for accurate pitch.

 

[richship]

You have to realize that the string past the nut or bridge is not a buffer or spring zone or reservoir or anything like that. It's at the same tension as the speaking length. There's no "reserve springiness" sitting there waiting to be taken advantage of.
s 24 3/4" scale. It's noticeably slinkier than the 25 1/2" Fender scale even though there's only 3/4" difference. It takes less tension to bring the shorter scale to tune.

I am assuming that the tension behind the nut will be the same as the rest of the string. And when just plucking a string, it won't make much if any difference.

But you think changing the tension (with a bend or pull) on a string a mile long will feel the exact same as one 2 feet long? I don't think so. The tension increase will be distributed along the whole string (assuming the string is free to move across the nut).

 

[Cagey]

You have to realize that the string past the nut or bridge is not a buffer or spring zone or reservoir or anything like that. It's at the same tension as the speaking length. There's no "reserve springiness" sitting there waiting to be taken advantage of.
s 24 3/4" scale. It's noticeably slinkier than the 25 1/2" Fender scale even though there's only 3/4" difference. It takes less tension to bring the shorter scale to tune.

I am assuming that the tension behind the nut will be the same as the rest of the string. And when just plucking a string, it won't make much if any difference.

But you think changing the tension (with a bend or pull) on a string a mile long will feel the exact same as one 2 feet long? I don't think so. The tension increase will be distributed along the whole string (assuming the string is free to move across the nut).

As I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, In order for the high "E" to vibrate properly (~329hz) using a .009" diameter steel string that's 25.5" long, it has to be tensioned to 13.13 lbs. You can run the string forever past the 25.5" points, as long as it's at 13.13 lbs. you're good to go. There should be no difference in tension anywhere along the string, but sometimes there is due to mechanical anomalies with the instrument that we're in a constant battle to eliminate. Common adversaries in the fight are the bridge, nut, string "trees" and sloppy tuning mechanisms. But, I digress.

The tension is the thing. The 13.13 lbs. has to be there for that string at that length, or it's not a high "E". That's just physics. Opinion, experience, emotional state or political party don't matter. So, regardless of how long the string is past the speaking length, it's at 13.13 lbs. or it's not an "E". If you want to raise it's pitch, you'll have to stretch it to a higher tension.

It probably should be pointed out that musicians are often a touchy-feely, creative and emotional lot, and as such are highly susceptible to the power of suggestion and suspicious of science and facts. So, if Eric Clapton says aluminum necks sound "warm and bluesy", a surprisingly large number of guitar players will eat that shit up with a spoon and you'd better be buying stock in an aluminum neck-building company <grin>

 

[line6man]

Cagey knows what he's talking about.

It is NOT possible for string tension to be different on each side of the nut. A string has to be tightened up to a specific tension to produce a given note BETWEEN the nut and bridge.

In other words, on a 25-1/2 inch scale guitar, a SPECIFIC amount of tension on the 6th string  is required to produce an open 'E' between the nut and bridge. The string tension between the nut and bridge will be NO different than the tension between the nut and tuning peg.

As for D-tuners; if you play a 5-string bass, you don't need a D--tuner.  For guitar, it makes D-drops quicker, but fine tuning is still going to be necessary for accurate pitch.

If the string is binding in the nut, the tension can be different.
Easiest example: Take a locking nut, lock it down and then turn the tuning pegs. The tension will increase or decrease behind the nut, but between the nut and saddles, it wont change.

If your string binds in the nut slot, tuning the it up is going to increase the tension behind the nut until it's enough to "drag" the other side of the string across the nut, if that makes sense.

 

[Cagey]

You're right, but that goes back to a dysfunctional instrument, which has already been cast out of this discussion.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

You have to realize that the string past the nut or bridge is not a buffer or spring zone or reservoir or anything like that. It's at the same tension as the speaking length. There's no "reserve springiness" sitting there waiting to be taken advantage of.

If you can't picture it in your head, you're just going to have to trust me. The scale length and tension are the thing, not the string length. Even a small difference in scale length is noticeable - that's why some guys like Gibson's 24 3/4" scale. It's noticeably slinkier than the 25 1/2" Fender scale even though there's only 3/4" difference. It takes less tension to bring the shorter scale to tune.

Why does turrning the tuning key a half turn break a string if a nut is locked but doesn't if the nut isn't locked?  Afterall, the string length doesn't matter and they are the same tension and extra string doesn't add reserve springiness waiting there to be taken advatage of.  I understand the string would break at either side of the nut at the same tension, but reaches it faster on the locked side due to the shorter string length.  Wouldn't having more string to stretch keep it from breaking sooner and coicidentally make bending a string feel different?  Install the same gauge string on the high and low Es of a 6 in line locking nut, tune to the same pitch.  The shorter one with the same tension will break sooner when tightened.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Cagey, it dawns on me most of this is communication.  With your .009 tuned to E, that sting will break at the same amount of tension if it's 25.5" or 25.5'.  What I'm talking about is "slinkiness."  A longer string will have to stretch more to get to that same amount.  Wouldn't extra string, a longer distance with little breakover after the bridge, give it that feel?  A Strat hard tail won't have as much bend to pitch compared to a Jazzmaster trem.  It's the same reason a longer rubberband or bungee cord can stretch further before it breaks, even though it breaks (or reaches pitch on a guitar) at the same tension, just different length.

Reverse Headstock, LOL.

 

[Cagey]

Why does turrning the tuning key a half turn break a string if a nut is locked but doesn't if the nut isn't locked?  Afterall, the string length doesn't matter and they are the same tension and extra string doesn't add reserve springiness waiting there to be taken advatage of.

Because you're trying to stretch a very short string beyond it's tensile strength. You'd find that at the point it breaks, it might be at 20lbs or so, when it's only good for maybe 18. The rest of the string doesn't count because the nut's locked and it's effectively the endpoint of the string.