Photographic Images under Lacquer? Is this Possible?

[AGWAN]

I keep hearing bits about painting over stickers... or putting some kind of image UNDER the finish. but I can't find a Definitive source on how to.

I am kind of leery to putting my hand painted images onto a guitar... as I pretty much would only get one shot (unless I felt like sanding it off a few times!) at how it looks. and I'm REALLY picky.

I'd much rather put some kind of high res copy underneath the finish... but not sure what kind of material I'd need... or how exactly I'd go about it all.

you guys are always so helpful with this stuff. And I'm kinda posting a ton here at the moment.

but I know if you guys don't have the answer, you probably know someone who does!

So thanks again for anything!

 

[Keyser Soze]

I doubt there is a single 'definitive' resource as the exact procedure is going to vary depending on the exact material used. 

But in general you will need to laminate the photo/printed item securely to the surface, possibly seal the photo item (if the intended topcoat might cause the photo ink/pigments to bleed or fade), then apply your final finish.  Basically not that different from applying a waterslide decal. 

The most likely types of failure will be the aforementioned bleed issue or wrinkling caused by disparate shrinkage between two or more layers of the surface materials.

You might want to hit the book store and check out the craft section for some tips.  Experimentation is probably in order.  Also give some consideration to the lightfastness of whatever prints you choose to use - once they are sealed under the finish the last thing you want to see is a slow (or fast) disappearing act.

 

[Cagey]

There's a place (I'm sure not the only one, but the one I've used) called DecalPaper.com where you can buy clear waterslide decal paper for laser printers. I just recently got the stuff so I can't say how well it works, but the source of the data (Ron Kirn) that drove me there is highly reliable. Here are a couple examples of guitar headstocks from his builds...

Anyway, it's been used extensively for making headstock decals, and works like a champ. You can finish over it with lacquer, which means you can finish over it with just about anything. Successive coats with level sanding in between will embed the thing in the finish to where you can't see the edges. Very professional finish. I've only seen it done with black lettering, but high-resolution color lasers are easy enough to come by these days, so you could feasibly embed photographs in your finish.

 

[AGWAN]

You guys are always so awesome. thank you so much!

 

[mullyman]

Someone needs to dig up that guitar that has the music paper all over it. I think he explained how he did it. I don't mind searching but I have no idea what the thread title was. All I remember was it was a strat type guitar with music paper all over it and the edges of the paper had been burnt. He did a badass job on it too.
MULLY

 

[mullyman]

Holy crap, I found it.

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=4349.0

Check this one out. I didn't read through the thread again but if I remember correctly he had some explanations in there. Don't shoot me if he didn't.
MULLY

 

[Cagey]

He says he used "Mod Podge decoupage solution", which a little research turns up as a somewhat thinned wood glue. It's not a smooth or particularly durable finish, but it works well joining paper and wood. You'd have to put something over it, or even small amounts of sweat would probably start taking the stuff off fairly quickly. Decoupage is essentially paper mache, only as a covering rather than a construction material.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Generally you test a non important picture by spraying it with the lacquer first.  I know from experience that the solvents in lacquer will make laser printer ink run.  If you go that route, use shellac a number of times and make the paper a part of the body/wood.  let it get good and dry, then lacquer it.  I do not know about actual photographs, they seem to be disappearing from daily life, but I do remember them being ruined by organic solvents.  You'd have to check with a couple of non essential test runs to be sure.
Patrick

 

[Keyser Soze]

Reading through that strat thread he says "I used Mod Podge decoupage solution to affix the paper with, and I also put one coat on top to seal it ( if I had it to do over again I'd prolly put 2 coats to make sure the oils based poly didn't seep through at all, Live and learn)"

So it sounds like he used an oil based poly as a top coat - that would definately keep moisture away from the paper and white glue.

 

[AGWAN]

Thanks mully! that was awesome!

And thank you guys! again!

this gives me an idea, of taking a bunch of sketches and designs I have laying around in varying degree's of Penciling and Ink, tearing them up and gluing them on!

 

[Cagey]

I know from experience that the solvents in lacquer will make laser printer ink run.

Are you sure you're not thinking of inkjet or thermal transfer ink? Because laser printers don't use ink. They use toner, which is a plastic ground into microfine particles. That in turn is heat-fused to the substrate you're printing on. It's very difficult to get that to smudge or run. In the pictures of headstocks I showed earlier in the thread, those are laser-printed decals under lacquer. Nothing special done to them. They were simply shot and sanded a number of times to even out the edges and embed the images into the surface of the finish. You can read about and see how Ron Kirn does it here.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Yes Cagey, I am positive.  I just did it about a month ago with an HP 4050 LaserJet printer.  I know it is toner that is thermally affixed to the paper.  The solvent still takes the toner apart and dissolves it very quickly.  It is similar to acetone and many plastics, it just dissolves it.
Patrick

 

[Cagey]

Hmm... that's distressing. I just paid $25 for a pack of those sheets, but I haven't used one yet. If lacquer eats them up, I don't know what other use I'll have for them. I've been buying finished necks from Warmoth, but I've got a couple others here that aren't finished yet that I was going to try this on. Time to get out some scrap pieces of wood and see what happens, I suppose.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

There is the possibility that certain lacquer brands use different solvents, and certain brand toners use plastics that are more resistant.  Spraying will also be less likely for problems than brushing.  Still, I would make a test run and a couple of extras on the page in case things don't go as planned the first time.  It has been mentioned quite a number of times before on the board that Zinsser Wax Free Shellac is a great intermediate coat between materials that don't play well with lacquer.  The shellac is dissolved in ethanol, which is much less aggressive towards all things plastic based, and it sticks well to just about everything.  Lacquer sticks real good to shellac as well.

I was going to shellac the piece of paper with the tube layout into my tweed cabinet I was lacquering, and just forgot the shellac step.  It made the ink run, and I was furious with myself for forgetting the shellac step on the paper.  Lesson learned.
Patrick

 

[Cagey]

Well, in the interests of science and all, I printed out some miscellaneous text on a decal sheet and gave it a wipe with some acetone, figuring that would be the most aggressive reducer you'd ever use in lacquer. Smeared like a political campaign ad. So, yeah. You're right. Some kind of sealer is in order. But, first... gotta find some beer...