LP bodies prices insane?
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jackthehack
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mscmkr said:
You shouldn't be, you probably just haven't heard somebody plug an Gibson LP directly into a Fender amp and play blues. Actually, you probably HAVE heard that, just never SEEN that.
Since the thread topic wandered, mostly what is being posted is people's misconceptions.
As noted by one post; set neck vs. bolt on neck makes shit for difference, given the same neck wood(s)/pickups.
The only difference I can discern between "vintage" truss rod construction and Warmoth Pro is that the Pro necks seem never to move once set up and don't need annual or better readjustment. Tonally, if made from the same type/quality of wood they will sound identical.
Pickup and neck wood are the only items that really affect your tonality, but the degree they do isn't all that absolute, it has LOT more to do with the FINGERS playing the guitar. David Gilmour playing a '56 LP Goldtop still sounds like David Gilmour; likewise other players whom occasionally swap guitars to ply - Hendrix on Flying V.
If playing through a Gilmoureque or typical "metal" effects chain and/or playing through a thoroughly overdriven amp of any sort, the ONLY bit of the original guitar's character that will wash through that is the max output feed from the pickups used.
You AREN'T going to sound like Jimmy Page (insert other guitar player) just because you have a '58 LP (insert other guitar type) plugged into a Marshall stack (insert alternate amplifier).
jackthehack
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Ang3lus said:
It depends on the financial equation you use to determine "value-for-money".
If your perspective is entirely re-sale value after X period of time, probably not.
If you're comparing bodies like those in question in the thread and more correctly comparing them to higher end Gibson Custom Shop model pricing that you can't even getting with woods/finish this striking, then the answer would be yes. You also have to factor in your ability to do other wood/finish/pickups and electronics options that are near infinite to make the exact guitar YOU want, rather than settling for stock Gibson models, priceless....
Ang3lus said:
looking at resale value, no. Looking at tone, feel, sound, overall quality, attention to details, FINISHING!, fretjobs, leveling, etc etc: warmoth is much, much better. despite the bolt on, or maybe thanks to the bolt on. I have 5 warmoth les pauls, of which 2 have real gibson-like specs (except the neckback, but the others have a tremolosystem or woods that bare no resemblance to gibson whatsoever!). those 2 sound as warm, as punchy, as bright, as mellow as a gibson LP (custom), just with better playability, better finish, nicer tops, better picups, nicer neckshapes, nicer neckwoods and better fretjobs. they only lack trapezoid or block inlay and binding, and a glued in neck. those 2 sound just great. alot of 'thrust', power, twangy-ness (like the previous clip) or major amounts of tightness and crunch when I plug into my jcm800.
I recommend warmoth any day of the week.
Here are two examples of what I prefer to think of as humbucking/overdriven tubes tone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-CC2jOVNSI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t25AOSxZZkI
They're both somewhat more trebly than the old Santana/Page stuff, but that can be adjusted downwards after the amp stages - that would usually be done by speaker choice. Petrucci uses a lot more preamp tube drive, obviously. They both play Music Man guitars, bolted maple necks with I believe basswood bodies. Let's face it - any guitar is generating certain frequencies, every cord, stompbox, tube, speaker cabinet, speaker in the chain affects the overall EQ - there are many ways to get to the same tonal style. If you're starting out with an adequate amount of treble, midrange, and bass from your guitar, the tone is determined by the proportions of frequencies and how you overdrive them, and then how they're RE-equalized by the following elements of the chain.
I pay close attention to what people are using, but you have to listen well more than anything. Every guitarist should at some point buy a cheap $50 rack graphic equalizer off of Ebay and fool around with it, so that they can get a grasp of what frequency proportions cause what they consider to be "good" tone. Or, just keep buying pickups and amps and guitars and stompboxes till you have a million of them, and still don't know doodly-squat about why things sound good.... :help: Here's a starting point:
http://www.amptone.com/
*(uh-oh...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-CC2jOVNSI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t25AOSxZZkI
They're both somewhat more trebly than the old Santana/Page stuff, but that can be adjusted downwards after the amp stages - that would usually be done by speaker choice. Petrucci uses a lot more preamp tube drive, obviously. They both play Music Man guitars, bolted maple necks with I believe basswood bodies. Let's face it - any guitar is generating certain frequencies, every cord, stompbox, tube, speaker cabinet, speaker in the chain affects the overall EQ - there are many ways to get to the same tonal style. If you're starting out with an adequate amount of treble, midrange, and bass from your guitar, the tone is determined by the proportions of frequencies and how you overdrive them, and then how they're RE-equalized by the following elements of the chain.
I pay close attention to what people are using, but you have to listen well more than anything. Every guitarist should at some point buy a cheap $50 rack graphic equalizer off of Ebay and fool around with it, so that they can get a grasp of what frequency proportions cause what they consider to be "good" tone. Or, just keep buying pickups and amps and guitars and stompboxes till you have a million of them, and still don't know doodly-squat about why things sound good.... :help: Here's a starting point:
http://www.amptone.com/
http://www.amptone.com/#eqconcepts
- Jerry Garcia*
*(uh-oh...)
jackthehack
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"Here are two examples of what I prefer to think of as humbucking/overdriven tubes tone"
Same tone available from Strat neck pickup....
Same tone available from Strat neck pickup....
Ang3lus said:
Sounds to me like you want a Gibson. The benefit with these are the resale values.
Warmoth is superior. Your OP is very misguided and quite naive.
My advice is go buy a Gibson, play lots of them and hopefully you'll come across something you like. I hear the 2008 models have lots of upgrades owners make to their LP's, tonepros, CTS etc etc.
will be.This thread is a lil old and was somewhat hijacked, but I think while not "insane" prices is correct....the prices for the top end bodies have doubled since I bought mine 2 years ago and is a bit alarming considering the current state of the economy. Growing popularity of the Warmoth name and the demand for the LP body style may have a lot to do with it.
AprioriMark
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I was interested to read this old thread as well. I've often felt that some of Warmoth's pricing is... screwy. It may be that I don't understand the specific expenses for them, but I guess I mostly don't get why a CNC carved top should add so much onto an already pricy piece of wood. Then you look at binding expenses for both body and neck, and it just makes me wonder if those prices are really worth what they're charging.
Now, I'm not knocking Warmoth for valuing their product at an elevated level; I'm a firm believer in, "if it's worth it to me, I'll pay it." I am saying, however, that the one guitar lacking from my collection is a goldtop LP (I had mine stolen 6 years ago), and I would rather have a Warmoth one than a Gibson one, because I don't want to support the kind of garbage that Gibson has been building lately. Oh yeah, and I've always been happy with my Warmoth guitars and basses~ That guitar will continue to be lacking from my collection until I somehow get an amazing deal on a Warmoth goldtop body and a bound neck. The last time I priced it out, I could get a Gibson Classic goldtop for about the same price as a Warmoth build, and that bothers me, personally. I'm not looking for exotic woods, and those Classic LPs are built on a CnC machine now too. Oh yeah, and they retain resale value. ><
So I guess, for me, I build or buy guitars based on collect-ability or play-ability, and I'm a minimalist. I own a few guitars that are worth more than your average car, and I own quite a few players that I will never part with and cost me less than 800 bucks to build. I have a hard time sinking twice that (or more) into something with much less resale value, ESPECIALLY when there's no expectation that it will fill the "goldtop" hole in my heart. I'm sure it'll be a great guitar, but I just can't seem to justify the expense somehow.
Enough rambling.
-Mark
Now, I'm not knocking Warmoth for valuing their product at an elevated level; I'm a firm believer in, "if it's worth it to me, I'll pay it." I am saying, however, that the one guitar lacking from my collection is a goldtop LP (I had mine stolen 6 years ago), and I would rather have a Warmoth one than a Gibson one, because I don't want to support the kind of garbage that Gibson has been building lately. Oh yeah, and I've always been happy with my Warmoth guitars and basses~ That guitar will continue to be lacking from my collection until I somehow get an amazing deal on a Warmoth goldtop body and a bound neck. The last time I priced it out, I could get a Gibson Classic goldtop for about the same price as a Warmoth build, and that bothers me, personally. I'm not looking for exotic woods, and those Classic LPs are built on a CnC machine now too. Oh yeah, and they retain resale value. ><
So I guess, for me, I build or buy guitars based on collect-ability or play-ability, and I'm a minimalist. I own a few guitars that are worth more than your average car, and I own quite a few players that I will never part with and cost me less than 800 bucks to build. I have a hard time sinking twice that (or more) into something with much less resale value, ESPECIALLY when there's no expectation that it will fill the "goldtop" hole in my heart. I'm sure it'll be a great guitar, but I just can't seem to justify the expense somehow.
Enough rambling.
-Mark
ApriorMark, you have great points which I agree. I would love to think that a 2008 Warmoth assembled by Max, or anyone else here, might fetch good money 5-10 years from now, But we all know it's not gonna happen. The sad part is this, the sum of the parts might be better, but theres no heritage, lineage or whatever, to a Warmoth guitar. Or any aftermarket parts guitar for that matter. And the reason is, the parts are too good, and assembled for the most part by people who aren't paid by the hour to slap shite together.
Warmoth prices their stuff as high as they can, and still sell it, thats the american capitolistic way. I'd do the same thing as well.
Warmoth prices their stuff as high as they can, and still sell it, thats the american capitolistic way. I'd do the same thing as well.
lafromla1
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Mark,
While I definitely agree with you in that if you're looking for a goldtop, it will cost about the same whether you build it or buy it from Gibson, I think the difference is in the parts you want to put into it. The body itself will most likely have no difference in it as it will be painted, so needing an exotic wood is not necessary, but do you want the parts Gibson will be using or do you want to put different (or better) parts on it? Do you want the neck contour that Gibson has on it or do you want a custom one may feel/fit better? When I first heard about Warmoth, I thought it was a place to build a guitar for much cheaper then buying a name brand. Then I realized while I can save a little money, its a place to build a 'custom' guitar, not a cheap one. I liked the PRS body, Gibson Burstbuckers and a Clapton contour neck. I would never be able to put together a guitar like that from only one of the major manufacturers, but going through Warmoth for most of it (all but the pups), I was able to get exactly what I wanted. Resale value? Probably nowhere near what I paid, but then again unless I really needed cash fast, why would I ever think about selling it? This guitar was spec'd and built exactly the way I wanted it. Just some thoughts......
Larry
While I definitely agree with you in that if you're looking for a goldtop, it will cost about the same whether you build it or buy it from Gibson, I think the difference is in the parts you want to put into it. The body itself will most likely have no difference in it as it will be painted, so needing an exotic wood is not necessary, but do you want the parts Gibson will be using or do you want to put different (or better) parts on it? Do you want the neck contour that Gibson has on it or do you want a custom one may feel/fit better? When I first heard about Warmoth, I thought it was a place to build a guitar for much cheaper then buying a name brand. Then I realized while I can save a little money, its a place to build a 'custom' guitar, not a cheap one. I liked the PRS body, Gibson Burstbuckers and a Clapton contour neck. I would never be able to put together a guitar like that from only one of the major manufacturers, but going through Warmoth for most of it (all but the pups), I was able to get exactly what I wanted. Resale value? Probably nowhere near what I paid, but then again unless I really needed cash fast, why would I ever think about selling it? This guitar was spec'd and built exactly the way I wanted it. Just some thoughts......
Larry
Superlizard
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So many are concerned about "resale value".
If'n ya build it the way you want it, and build it right the first time - no need to resell.
Only time you need to resell is with a dire financial emergency... if you're building 'em and finding yourself turning around and selling 'em,
then there's something wrong, and the problem is most likely you don't know what the f00k you really want. :icon_biggrin:
If'n ya build it the way you want it, and build it right the first time - no need to resell.
Only time you need to resell is with a dire financial emergency... if you're building 'em and finding yourself turning around and selling 'em,
then there's something wrong, and the problem is most likely you don't know what the f00k you really want. :icon_biggrin:
SL is right. Though it is true that sometimes you do need to buy / build some guitars to really figure out what it is that you like.
I really don't get this thread - the complainers are saying that company A offers a superior product with unmatched customization options at a lower price than company B, but company A is doing something wrong? :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: Plus, I just had a quick look at the showcase (I don't browse LPs because I have a wicked one already) and the $800 bodies are all ridonculous bound / quilt things that Gibson doesn't offer, and there are several plainer unfinished ones you can have painted in whatever you want. I don't even think you can compare Gibsons offerings to that at any price.
I really don't get this thread - the complainers are saying that company A offers a superior product with unmatched customization options at a lower price than company B, but company A is doing something wrong? :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: Plus, I just had a quick look at the showcase (I don't browse LPs because I have a wicked one already) and the $800 bodies are all ridonculous bound / quilt things that Gibson doesn't offer, and there are several plainer unfinished ones you can have painted in whatever you want. I don't even think you can compare Gibsons offerings to that at any price.
Death by Uberschall
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The simplest way I can think of putting it is this:
Warmoth guitars are for "PLAYERS", not collectors or market speculators.
I consider Warmoth the custom shop the big name builders "claim" to be, but aren't. If you need anything more than what Warmoth does there are plenty of luthiers out there who can build you anything you want from scratch.
If you want resale value, buy the corporate over priced PRS, Gibson, Fender, Suhr, (insert other names here), etc.
From what I've seen, the Gibson Les Paul Studios are the best bang for the buck big name guitars out there right now. I have a Gibson Gothic LP and a Gary Moore LP (the original, not the BFG) and they both play great.
Warmoth guitars are for "PLAYERS", not collectors or market speculators.
I consider Warmoth the custom shop the big name builders "claim" to be, but aren't. If you need anything more than what Warmoth does there are plenty of luthiers out there who can build you anything you want from scratch.
If you want resale value, buy the corporate over priced PRS, Gibson, Fender, Suhr, (insert other names here), etc.
From what I've seen, the Gibson Les Paul Studios are the best bang for the buck big name guitars out there right now. I have a Gibson Gothic LP and a Gary Moore LP (the original, not the BFG) and they both play great.
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