LP bodies prices insane?

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

never

 

[Superlizard]

LP too expensive?

Solution:

Get a Warmoth strat - you pay less, and have a superior geetar in the process (strat > LP).

Problem solved.   :toothy10:

 

[AprioriMark]

1. They hadn't raised prices in almost a decade or something. Have you noticed the price of health care in the last decade?
2. Gregg stated at some point that at the old pricing, carved tops were a money loser.
3. You and I don't know much about the price of high quality, 3/4 inch quilted / flamed maple slabs, do we? Why presume that you're being unfairly gouged, then?
4. Even if carved tops at the new pricing are Ws most profitable item, so what? Every manufacturer makes more profit on some items than others - and its very common to do what warmoth seems to be doing, which is selling volume at the lower end for lower margins (alder strat bodies) and getting higher margins at the upper end (carved tops, unique choice tops). That's a pretty normal business model.
5. Can we stop whining now?

I agree with everything you're saying, though I think it's a little fan-boi-esque to call any of this "whining."  I still think that the prices are unreasonable for (and follow me here, wood pervs) NON-FIGURED CARVED TOPS.  If I'm painting it, I don't see it as reasonable to pay 500+ for a carved top body.  Yes, I understand and appreciate that Warmoth is free to sell their products for whatever price they want, and I don't begrudge them that.  I just feel like it's excessive, and while I would pay 1000+ for a figured body that only Warmoth could provide, I have one of those already, and I want a goldtop. 

-Mark

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

If you're painting it, I don't see any reason for it to be Maple.  Even some of the precious Gibby LPs with solid colors have alder tops.  So much for the brightness of the maple top.

 

[dbw]

If you're painting it, I don't see any reason for it to be Maple.  Even some of the precious Gibby LPs with solid colors have alder tops.  So much for the brightness of the maple top.

LP Customs are (or were at one point) all-mahogany.

 

[blue313]

Hmm, I don't see any option on the pricing guide for a carved top LP without a laminate top.  That's probably your price difference right there.

On flat tops it adds $100 for a 1/8" top.  I can see how going from a 1/8" top to a 6/8" top could double that figure.  A plain mahogany flat top is $230, and adding a 3/4" laminate top is....another ~$200 for a subtotal if $430.  They want $510 total or an additional $80 in labor to carve the top.  That's not unreasonable considering what's listed for options.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Let me give you guys and gals an example of price gouging.

I worked in retail automotive dealer service departments ever since I got out of high school up until last year when I decided to change careers. GM (all of them), BMW, Volvo, Porsche, Audi, etc. I've been a service manager twice (Saturn and BMW). If you ever wanted to see how price gouging is done, work in the big corporate world of automotive. Not so much on the dealership level, but in the manufacturing end of it.

Here's a couple of examples:

"Sport Packs", do you really believe it cost a manufacturer $2000-3500.00 to install a shorter/stiffer wound coil spring and strut/shocks with different valving over the cost of the standard parts you are already paying for. You could do it in the aftermarket with better parts for 1/3-1/2 the price the manufacturers charge and you would get to keep the old parts where at the factory they just get installed on the next "Entry Level" model to come down the line.

"High Output or Larger Displacement" engines, in the world of computer controlled everything; engine output, fuel economy, drivability and every other factor you can think about is determined by a program. In the old days it was special high performance camshafts, carbs, heads, etc that made the difference. Not today, it's as simple as altering the programming. Just look at all the aftermarket programmers available to unlock hidden horse power. But the factory will charge you thousands of dollars for the higher output with at worst case installing a different camshaft at the factory instead of the lower output version. Both of which they manufacture in-house for a few dollars. Same thing with larger displacement. Same block, same crankshaft, same rods, same heads. The only difference is the cylinders are bored slightly bigger with slightly larger pistons and maybe a slightly longer stroke cut into the same crankshaft casting, everything else being the same. Does that justify $2000-5000.00 they up charge you for the slight increase in engine size?

"Desireable Colors", always seem to be limited to the higher price models. All vehicles go through the same paint booths and processes in the factory. The robotic spray guns auto-mix the colors on the fly. No reason why a nicer looking color couldn't be sprayed on an entry level vehicle. But it's done that way to pull you into buying the vehicle with more built-in profit from all over the over priced add-ons that come with the up-level vehicles.

I know for a fact, as told to me by a factory rep (no, I won't say who or what brand), that an engine management computer that retails through the parts and service department for $1200.00+ only cost them $18.00 to manufacture!!! And no, I'm not kidding!!!

Do your self a small study. Pick an average vehicle. Look at how much it cost to buy new. Then start pricing replacement parts. You would quickly find that if you bought every part over the parts counter to build that same vehicle from scratch it would cost many times over the price of the new vehicle. On a $10,000.00 car, the engine and transmission replacement in most cases would cost more than the car.

As far as Warmoth, good woods, or should I say specialty and exotic woods are going up in cost because of regulation by governments and tree huggers. Whether it comes from government sanctions against the regions of the world that have that particular species. Or legislation that gets passed to reduce harvesting the woods here in our country or abroad due to scarcity and depletion which is a double edged sword for price increases (i.e. more demand, less supply). Now I can't speak directly for Warmoth, but I can understand the market and how things work. Another factor is demand for basic woods are going up also. Remember all those big fires we've seen destroy whole communities and towns. Well it takes wood to rebuild those and there is a high demand for wood products right now.

 

[Mor Paul]

Hey, DbU... I've got about $250. Can you get me a BMW Z4 Roadster, montego blue, convertible?

Seriously, that was an interesting read.

 

[Superlizard]

"Sport Packs", do you really believe it cost a manufacturer $2000-3500.00 to install a shorter/stiffer wound coil spring and strut/shocks with different valving over the cost of the standard parts you are already paying for. You could do it in the aftermarket with better parts for 1/3-1/2 the price the manufacturers charge and you would get to keep the old parts where at the factory they just get installed on the next "Entry Level" model to come down the line.

Does that justify $2000-5000.00 they up charge you for the slight increase in engine size?

It's quite believable when you factor in Union costs.   :icon_biggrin:

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

It's quite believable when you factor in Union costs.   :icon_biggrin:

Being in a union, and having worked at the GM assembly plant in Arlington, TX, I will give that a big......

+1

 

[Death by Uberschall]

It's quite believable when you factor in Union costs.   :icon_biggrin:

Being in a union, and having worked at the GM assembly plant in Arlington, TX, I will give that a big......

+1

Yes, but the Union cost are the same for either part, doesn't factor into the up charge.  Labor doesn't change in relation to the package, only the parts are different. :icon_thumright:

And I'm sure Super Turbo Deluxe Custom will tell you I'm right on with what I stated above since he's worked on the corporate side of the business.  :evil4:

 

[lilguitar]

[Actually the price of wood has increased with the amount of deforestation that has occurred, specifically in the last few years as more homes have been built then ever before, so they are taking any and all wood available.  Couple that with increasing utility costs, increased cost of goods (other than wood), maintenance on machinery, increased salaries, increased property, liability and health insurance...you get the idea. 

Have you seen the news lately?  The housing market has sucked since mid to late 2007...hence why new houses aren't being sold/built at an alarming rate, so that is definately not a reason wood prices would be going up.  I realize that wood prices have gone up some, but surely not double.  I'm not buying any of your other logic either...we're in a recession! 

Now if Warmoth was losing money on the LPs, that's understandable that they would increase the price and if it's as simple as supply vs demand...ok I get it then. Someone else obviosly took notice that the strats hadn't doubled in price, so the question was raised.

As for the overly dramatic assumptions...I don't think anyone on here has mentioned anything about being "unfairly gouged" or is questioning "business models" and I don't think questioning a price increase accounts for whining, in fact I think that's quite a fair question to ask for folks that earn their money.

 

[dbw]

Mine was built before the price increase, by the way.

 

[Lucky #7]

For the most part it's relatively simple from what they've said on this thread in the past.  Costs are up a bit, especially with quilt maple, and DL Quilt Maple Tops actually cost more to construct.  Other than that, they think the market will bare it and are likely looking to maximize profits.

My grandfather had a plaque that is now in my stepdad's office.  It reads as follows.

This is a profit making enterprise.  That's the way it was intended and that's the way it is.

 

[stubhead]

Solution:

Get a Warmoth strat - you pay less, and have a superior geetar in the process

I gotta agree here - a "Strat-shaped guitar" will balance better because of the upper horn, and they're easier to play sitting down. I personally don't even think there is such a thing as a bolt-on-neck "Les Paul", even when Epiphone makes 'em... they're just Les Paul-shaped guitars. Les Pauls have set necks, and they're made out of either all mahogany or mahogany with a maple cap. It's integral to the design - ESP and PRS make guitars that are more Paulish than any Warmoths.... I guess it's a guitar-as-fashion-statement thing, and I just depend on my natural good looks in that regard (thnx Max!)

(hint: Did Gibson ever sue Warmoth?)  :icon_scratch:


(when GIBSON makes a Les Paul out of korina, it's not a Les Paul anymore....)  :hello2:

 

[lilguitar]

For the most part it's relatively simple from what they've said on this thread in the past.  Costs are up a bit, especially with quilt maple, and DL Quilt Maple Tops actually cost more to construct.  Other than that, they think the market will bare it and are likely looking to maximize profits.

My grandfather had a plaque that is now in my stepdad's office.  It reads as follows.

This is a profit making enterprise.  That's the way it was intended and that's the way it is.

And I can live with that answer. Thanks

 

[lafromla1]

[Actually the price of wood has increased with the amount of deforestation that has occurred, specifically in the last few years as more homes have been built then ever before, so they are taking any and all wood available.  Couple that with increasing utility costs, increased cost of goods (other than wood), maintenance on machinery, increased salaries, increased property, liability and health insurance...you get the idea. 

Have you seen the news lately?  The housing market has sucked since mid to late 2007...hence why new houses aren't being sold/built at an alarming rate, so that is definately not a reason wood prices would be going up.  I realize that wood prices have gone up some, but surely not double.  I'm not buying any of your other logic either...we're in a recession! 

Remember, we are not the only country that builds houses out of wood.  And while we may not use a nice maple tree for housing doesn't mean that other countries wouldn't.

 

[Orpheo]

I always keep thinking, what makes a les paul a les paul? First of all, the shape, the contour, so to speak. the  carved top is not neccasarily needed, cause you've got the LP special/junior,but for a standard/custom, it is needed. In that area, warmoth scores high points. also, the bridge. here again, warmoth's spot on; right bridge, but the tailstop is just a bit ferther away than on a gibson, facilitating easier bending.

The neckwoods are subject to your own choice. You can choose mahogany, or anytyhing else, but still, it can be just like on a gibson. headstock, pickups, tuners, other hardware: same thing. You can choose what you want (big, huge, major strength of warmoth!).

but, the crucial point is the neckjoint. A 'real' les paul, the first batch, was made with a strange trapezoid tailpiece, so in that retrospect, all the others are 'wrong'. idem for the colors. But we kinda neglect that point. Also, the first ones were sometimes made with korina (the proto's!), and they all had the long neck tenon. For me, the short tenon, when looking at the 'real' les paul, is just as bad as a bolt on neck. the bolt on is much better though; tighter fit at warmoth, compared with the looser fit; gibson needs huge amounts of glue to keep the neck tight. Warm climates can make gibson-necks unstable.

regarding the tailpiece location; the real les pauls had the trapezoid, but ok, lets consider the ToM/stoptail version. the real stoptail was a bit slanted, counterslanted compared with the bridge itself. on new models, the stoptail is straight with the centreline. In my opinion, thats the wrong position, and just as bad as the different position on a warmoth; bit more distance between the two.

Also, on some proto's, the scale was 25'', not 24.75'', though many people don't know that little fact. strange, huh?

so, for me, warmoth's les paul is just as wrong as gibson. and yeah, they're in the business for profit, what else? And woods and production methods have become more expensive over the years, but still, its dirt cheap, with GREAT customer support!

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Yes, but the Union cost are the same for either part, doesn't factor into the up charge.  Labor doesn't change in relation to the package, only the parts are different. :icon_thumright:

And I'm sure Super Turbo Deluxe Custom will tell you I'm right on with what I stated above since he's worked on the corporate side of the business.  :evil4:

I'm not on the Corporate end.  I'm IBEW and definitely blue collar.  A few years ago I worked at the plant during a shutdown to retool the assembly line.  The UAW (atleast my limited expereience) was that the employess did not come to do work.  They had twice as many people doing half as much when the line was running at capacity.  They could've gotten by with a quarter of the personnel.  Little things in their contract like having a certain number of personnel present for everyone of ours, even though they were performing no work, meant non-management employees were clearing over 4 grand a week because it was Thanksgivng week, so there were double, triple, and quadruple time days on their check....and they never left their card game.