Kinman P90 in Warmoth Jazzmaster

tfcreative

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I've got a Jazzmaster body on the way, routed for P90's. I've also got a set of Kinman P90's coming, so I'm wondering about the fit. Does anyone have experience with this combo that can tell me if I'll need to deepen the pickup routs to accommodate the Kinmans?
 
I've seen the page in question on the Warmoth site. The only reference to depth is in regard to gibson humbuckers, and doesn't indicate if the depth is dependent on a carved or flat top. As that is not in reference to what I am building and the Kinmans are not a typical depth, I didn't see the harm in looking for more specific experience while I wait for parts.

Side note: it's not super encouraging for inexperienced builders if they're going to get grief for asking questions. Since my actual question was if anyone here has built this combination and you jumped over it to be smart, I'm going to guess that you have not and cannot actually help me.
 
tfcreative said:
I've seen the page in question on the Warmoth site. The only reference to depth is in regard to gibson humbuckers, and doesn't indicate if the depth is dependent on a carved or flat top. As that is not in reference to what I am building and the Kinmans are not a typical depth, I didn't see the harm in looking for more specific experience while I wait for parts.

Side note: it's not super encouraging for inexperienced builders if they're going to get grief for asking questions. Since my actual question was if anyone here has built this combination and you jumped over it to be smart, I'm going to guess that you have not and cannot actually help me.

Apologies if my reply sounded smart. It wasn't meant to be. I meant it to be brief. I had other things to do the day I posted that & wanted to make sure I got that reply in, then I was off...

As to the part of your original post calling for experienced builders in this combo, I would respectfully suggest you may wait a while for anyone to chime in, who may have had such experience.

Kinman pickups are expensive and almost boutique in manufacture number, and this is coming from me - an Australian - who would want one of my own to 'win' on the world stage! Couple that with the less popular Jazzmaster body, and your guess is as good as mine, as to how many folks would have had any experience with the combo of pickup & body shape you are doing as a  project.

I did do a Jazzmaster project guitar a few years back. I encountered problems that were primarily my own engineering & am always interested when a new Thread about Jazzmasters pops up. If I can stop someone from making the same costly errors I made, then I will jump in a reply. 

I don't know why you brought in the issue of carved top? Your Thread title strongly suggests a flat top guitar is the project subject ("Jazzmaster"). If so, the issue of curvature of the body is totally irrelevant on this project.

As regards to Warmoth's page, I see it does mention a depth of 3/4" on the P90 routing section. It's shown in the routing drawing for the P90. Is that not the information you were seeking?

On Kinman's page (page 2 of 7), they recommend a total depth from bottom of thickest string, to bottom of cavity, of 34mm or 1 1/4". Kinman's info also details the depths of numerous guitar bodies with the Gibson SG being the thinnest. A Jazzmaster body would be closer to the depth of a Strat or Tele than a Gibson SG.

My quick guess is, therefore, that whatever bridge you set on the body will help determine the overall total depth (as per Kinman's page) & the type of action you will achieve when you bolt the neck in place.

Warmoth will give you very close to 3/4" cavity depth (bar a coat of paint) & above that, to reach the goal total depth of 1 1/4" (34mm), will be up to the bridge saddle height. My maths tell me you need another 1/2" from the top of the body after Warmoth rout the P90 cavity? Agree?
 
Wow, thanks for the thorough and courteous reply. My apologies as well as I clearly misunderstood the intent of your original post.

I looked back harder at the Warmoth page and you are correct: the 3/4" depth is indeed listed, it was just buried in the illustration and I didn't catch it. The only reference I found within the text was the one by the Gibson (which is the only reason I referenced a carved top, assuming a Les Paul and unsure of how this might affect cavity depth). I'm definitely talking about a flat top guitar as my strat-playing habit has made it uncomfortable for me to play anything else.

My bridge is supposed to arrive later this week and I'll check diagrams and such to see about saddle height.

More than likely I'm just dealing with the waiting (Tom Petty was right) as my body and pickups won't likely arrive until mid-october. I'm probably too keyed up about this thing and just need to wait for parts to arrive, but I just want to have all my ducks in a row.

Out of curiosity, what did you run into on your JM build? I wouldn't say that I'm building a traditional JM, but I am understandably curious.
 
One of the problems I ran into - which you might too- is that the bridge position for a Jazzmaster body is quite forward on the body.

If you use a modern trem/bridge like a Wilkinson VS100 (like I did) or a Floyd Rose derivative etc. your trem arm is going to be too long. It gets in the way of your usual strumming space. I'm on the search for a 'David Gilmour' shortened trem arm that will fit a Wilkinson VS100 socket (the trems for the usual Strat trems are narrower than Wilkinson or Floyd Rose type trems).

On the trad Jazzmaster, the trem section is way back and the arm is long (longer than a Strat I think).

If you use woods other than the tried & proven ones for body & neck/fingerboards, be aware of how that could affect the tone your pickups will pick up. From my own experience a Hard Maple body weighing a ton, with a maple neck and ebony fingerboard is just too much treble & brightness.
 
Well I don't think I'll have term problems as I'm actually doing this as a hardtail. I'm actually going for a little darker tone, using a rosewood neck and chambered mahogany body with ash top, but I'm operating under the assumption that there will still be some snap and attack due to the 25.5 scale and the single coils.

I've only done one project instrument before, a 5 string bass. I learned quite a bit from it, but I also learned to not get too attached to my tonal predictions. At first I was really disappointed with that bass because it wasn't the sound in my head (mostly due to some experimentation with components I had no experience with), but it has turned out to be a very good bass. Sound guys love it and it sits in the mix really well, it's just not what I predicted. As a result, I'm holding my expectations a little more loosely on this project.
 
I've read good things on this forum about chambered bodies from Warmoth. Mahogany & a rosewood neck sounds chocolately lush. A brighter cap in the tone controls might help if the end result is a bit dark.

Hardtail will alleviate the worry about the trem arm, but the bridge will still be forward on the body, just be aware of that.

25.5" scale implies some twang, the swamp ash top and the good chambering will help tighten up that slack I'm guessing.

Enjoy the build!  :icon_thumright:
 
A friend of mine here has the Kinman P90s in an all-Warmoth Telecaster. Those are some great pups - excellent sensitivity and sweet tone. You're gonna love yours.
 
I'm also tempted to do a Warmoth project with Kinman P 90s.  I haven't really planned anything yet though.  I have started to toy though over should I just have 2 pickups or would 3 work, also how to wire them, should I keep it simple or think about switching options (e.g., out of phase switch or even a James Burton tele wiring) - OP, happy to start a new thread on this but thought you might also find it interesting553
 
Get everything in hand now and I've made some measurements. Definitely need to deepen the cavities, probably by about 3/16". I got a pattern bit for the router that should handle it in theory, but I'm a bit skittish as the body is already finished. I'll be holding my breath for sure.
 
If the pattern bit is shallow enough, you don't need a template - you can just follow the existing opening. In that case, all you need to do is protect the surface. Since the depth isn't hyper-critical, you can use something a little more robust - like poster board or the cardboard from the back of a legal pad - to keep the router's base from doing anything untoward to the finished top. You can (and probably should) also make more than one pass at it. Take out a sixteenth or an eighth, then reset for another sixteenth or an eighth. Makes it much easier to cut and less likely that you'll end up with wicked tear-outs or the tool getting away from you.

edit: Plus, it's free practice. You can't practice enough with the routerbeast. It's a mean tool.
 
I asked Kinman about putting their p90s in a jazzmaster.  Here is their response:

I would not advise trying to to install P-90 Hx into a Jazzmaster since the pickups cavities are very shallow and would require deepening by a significant amount.  However, we do have Jazzmaster covers in 53mm pole spread for bridge position that are suitable for our 53mm P-90 Hx.  The neck is 50mm and we have Jazzmaster covers for that too.
 
I've done the math and it looks like it should fit. I can't speak to the cavity depth of a Fender stock JM vs a Warmoth body, but I do understand that the Warmoth body itself is a little thicker (I think about 1/8") than stock, so that helps.

My pattern bit is 1/2" deep, I got one that is shallow enough to ride the inside of the existing routs. I'm already planning 3 passes at 1/16" each. I'll probably have time to do it tomorrow night. If they find me dead of a heart attack and router damage to the front of the guitar, it will be difficult to determine which happened first.
 
Routed last night, all went well. Plenty of wood left - when I compare to the rest of the routing, the screws don't even reach the bottom of the control cavity. Now I'm gonna shield this thing like it's a Faraday cage.
 
Won't be a Faraday cage because you've got to leave some honkin' big holes for the pickups to poke through, which makes the whole exercise moot. Screen doors on a submarine.

You're going to want to learn to love noise gates.
 
I guess I'm not really worried about hum from the pickups as that's part of the point of the Kinmans. I just assumed that it wouldn't hurt anything to shield it up while there's nothing in the cavities. The basses that I have with shielded cavities have less issue with picking up noise from things like lights, but I don't know if that experience is 100% relevant.
 
The Kinmans' design should cover about 98% of your battle. As for shielding the cavity, there's benefit if you're using some complicated active circuitry. But for an all-passive setup it'll provide at best a miniscule benefit.

Just don't have any long-ish loops or multi-loops of wire, like, say, a few feet long. But seriously, just keep your links short and your grounds close, avoid unnecessary loops and lengths. Your longest connector should be maybe a few inches' worth? Use a shielded cable to the output jack (the Kinmans' leads should already be shielded). And you'll be good to go.

Here's an idea to save you some work / time /expense. Try it without, see what you get. If you're getting noise then you can still shield the cavity afterwards.
 
Cool, potentially saves some work then. Most of my bass experience is indeed active electronics. Seems less needed in guitars, which is a lot simpler.
 
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