here is a fun one for those who studied music

[hannaugh]

But why would you want to do that?  :icon_scratch:  We're writing a song, for crying out loud, not doing a jigsaw puzzle!  :laughing7:

 

[drewfx]

Well, I'm not saying I would want to do that.

But one part of the development of Jazz has been pushing the theory forward to come up with increasing complex harmony. So it started with "traditional" diatonic harmony, then moved on to include harmonizing altered scales, and various theories of chord substitution to create more complex progressions.

Even if you're playing a "standard", there's often an expectation that one should alter the original chord progression somewhat, to come up with a unique, more original result.

Keep in mind, that the kind of Jazz I'm talking about here is largely instrumental and improvised - if everyone improvised for bars on end using the same scales over the same chord progressions it would get old fast, so they come up with this kind of stuff to keep it interesting.

 

[jalane]

This was/is my favorite theory lick to do from my jazz days utilizing minor pentatonic scales in new ways:

For a standard ii  V    I progression (let's use the key of C, so Dm7  G7 Cmaj7)

start with a pentatonic lick using an A minor pentatonic over the Dm7 chord, which gives you (note/interval relative to Dm7):
A/5th  C/dom7th  D/unison  E/9th  G/11th

then for the G7 chord, you can take the same lick and slide it up 1 fret, so now you're in an A# minor pentatonic, which implies a tritone sub. for the V chord:
A# / #9th  C# / #11th  D# / #5th  F/dom7th  G# / flat9th

This adds a ton of tension, which you resolve on the CMAJ7 chord when you slide the minor pentatonic lick up one more fret to a B minor pentatonic, so now you have:
B/Maj7  D/9th  E/3rd  F# / #11th(the money shot imho)  and A/13th

It's so simple to do, you're just playing stupid pentatonic shapes and sliding them chromatically, but when well executed it can sound absolutely thrilling

 

[Jusatele]

If you are in the key of C and someone ask you to mode of the sub mediant, what do you play? An A natural minor, an Aoelan relitive to C or what, Is it not all the same
if you are in the Key of C and someone ask for the subdominant, do we not go to the F? We have not changed keys, we are still in the key of C.  Is a Aoelian mode just the sub mediant mode of C? but Relitve when we use it as the Minor key. Is Mixiolodian a key or a Mode? What is the symbol for the F Mixolidian  scale on the treble staff? I mean if we are going to play a C Mixiolidian scale, do we use the 1 b on the staff, would not that be the scale of F? This Argument has not an end. Call it what you want;

back to the question

the question is, if given 9 tones to make the Chords C7, F7,  G7 work in the context of the blues most basic progression, a major progression with a minor scale played over it, How do we return this to Classical theory and retain a 7 tone scale? What tones do you drop and what do you keep and what is the basis for your decision?

 

[hannaugh]

Well Jalane, that makes sense because you're using a very unstable sound to lead back to the tonic.  That makes more sense to me than "I'm gonna flip everything inside out and backwards so can play 20 more minutes of improv." Of course, I much prefer the super old school pre-war type jazz to experimental jazz, so more power to you know how to do that and if you wanna do that.  I just can't see myself wanting to do that.  

 

[Jusatele]

And he is not mean, he is showing how to push the rules but remain in the form of what we accept as music
This is a Jazz question I agree, but it is so basic to improvision once answered it slaps you in the face as to the secret of breaking out of the box

 

[ptirman]

Thanks Jusatele. I learned alot from your posts. Mostly I learned that I need to learn a lot more. Fascinating and important.

 

[jalane]

Well Jalane, that makes sense because you're using a very unstable sound to lead back to the tonic.  That makes more sense to me than "I'm gonna flip everything inside out and backwards so can play 20 more minutes of improv." Of course, I much prefer the super old school pre-war type jazz to experimental jazz, so more power to you know how to do that and if you wanna do that.  I just can't see myself wanting to do that.  

Yeah, i hear you.  I find myself gravitating toward more classic, older, "cool" jazz sounds these days (i haven't formally studied jazz in 7 or 8 years).  I wouldn't say that this particular idea i mentioned is for "experimental" jazz only, but it is a very modern sound.  I actually stole that idea from transcribing a couple John Scofield solos, and Coltrane pioneered the whole use-pentatonics-in-innovative-ways thing in his "Giant Steps" days (which were progressive, but not crazy out-there free jazz like he did later on).

 

[jalane]

If you are in the key of C and someone ask you to mode of the sub mediant, what do you play? An A natural minor, an Aoelan relitive to C or what, Is it not all the same
if you are in the Key of C and someone ask for the subdominant, do we not go to the F? We have not changed keys, we are still in the key of C.  Is a Aoelian mode just the sub mediant mode of C? but Relitve when we use it as the Minor key. Is Mixiolodian a key or a Mode? What is the symbol for the F Mixolidian  scale on the treble staff? I mean if we are going to play a C Mixiolidian scale, do we use the 1 b on the staff, would not that be the scale of F? This Argument has not an end. Call it what you want;

You're right, it's one of those arguments that doesn't really have an answer, and it may be my jazz bias talking (in fact i'm sure it is), but i've never seen the use in referring to all the modes by their proper names, with the exceptions being dorian, mixolydian, and lydian.  All the other ones just make more sense to refer to their relative major scale (imho of course).  Want to solo in E Phrygian? How about A Aeolian or B Locrian? Whatever, just play a bunch of shit in C Major, THEY'RE THE SAME EFFING NOTES!  But that's just my preference, in the end it's all the same.  Just don't tell that to Steve Vai.

 

[hannaugh]

the question is, if given 9 tones to make the Chords C7, F7,  G7 work in the context of the blues most basic progression, a major progression with a minor scale played over it, How do we return this to Classical theory and retain a 7 tone scale? What tones do you drop and what do you keep and what is the basis for your decision?

That makes a lot more sense than the way it was originally worded.  

Okay well you can't take out the tonic (F) or the leading tone (E).  You can't take out the C or the G because they're in the root of two of the chords in the progression.  B and Eb are the added tones that give it that bluesy flavor, so I don't think I'd take those out.   So that leaves A, Bb, and D and I have to get rid of two of those... I guess theoretically you take out the A and the D?  The Bb is the 4th tone of the scale... and that seems more important to have around than the A and the D.  I really don't know.  I played the scale a few different ways, and it made me sad when the Bb was gone.  I missed it.  

Is there a "correct" answer he was looking for?  I'm just learning more advanced chord theory now, so tell me where I'm going wrong.

 

[elfro89]

i like this question, The answer in my book would be that there are several answers here, Since blues typically uses dominant 7 chords then mixolydian works because of the b7 but isnt perfect because it misses out the normal 7th encountered by your home chord, but when put in a jazz/blues context. The scale typically used is the Dominant be-bop scale, which is a 9 tone scale if you include the octave. and goes like follows.

I II III IV V VI bVII VII VIII
The flat 7th giving you the mixolydian feel.

The big reason why this is used is because of the non diatonic chord changes when 3 different dominant chords are used, such as C7, F7 and G7. (key of C)
In C7(and all dominant chords) the 7th is flat, which means when you change to an F chord, that flat 7th becomes the minor third of F but obviously there is no minor 3rd in F7 so it has to be sharpened to the Major 3rd, so when we put it back into the context of the be bop scale, the flat 7th becomes the 7th. With G7, it is naturally diatonic to the key of C so fits in.

the general rule of thumb is aslong as you hit the safe notes of the chord your currently sitting on when you improvise, anything is allowed. Many would argue thats the point of it.

 

[drewfx]

If you are in the key of C and someone ask you to mode of the sub mediant, what do you play? An A natural minor, an Aoelan relitive to C or what, Is it not all the same
if you are in the Key of C and someone ask for the subdominant, do we not go to the F? We have not changed keys, we are still in the key of C.  Is a Aoelian mode just the sub mediant mode of C? but Relitve when we use it as the Minor key. Is Mixiolodian a key or a Mode? What is the symbol for the F Mixolidian  scale on the treble staff? I mean if we are going to play a C Mixiolidian scale, do we use the 1 b on the staff, would not that be the scale of F? This Argument has not an end. Call it what you want;

back to the question

the question is, if given 9 tones to make the Chords C7, F7,  G7 work in the context of the blues most basic progression, a major progression with a minor scale played over it, How do we return this to Classical theory and retain a 7 tone scale? What tones do you drop and what do you keep and what is the basis for your decision?

Yes, the "mixolodian" part is really just a communications question, not a theory issue.

As to the original question, I said I would drop the E and A. Here's my analysis:

Start with this:
C D Eb E F G A Bb B

1. I'm primarily a bass player, so I need roots and fifths (sometimes melodic instruments will analyze differently - "I don't need 1 or 5, because the bass player's got those (or someone else in the rhythm section does)." :glasses10: )
So:
C D         F G

2. I want the dominant sevenths (it's blues, and for the I7 and IV7 chords, they're altered from the diatonic):
C D Eb    F G   Bb

3. That leaves me one of the 3 thirds to include: E, A or B
C D Eb E F G    Bb    = either C7 or Cmin7, F7sus4, Gmin7; No 3rd for IV7, minor 3rd in V7

C D Eb    F G A Bb    = C dorian (dorian mode of Bb) = Cmin7, F7, Gmin7; minor 3rds for I7 and V7

C D Eb    F G    Bb B = Cmin7, F7sus4, and either G7 or Gmin7; My choice. You end up with a minor 3rd over the I7 and no 3rd in the IV7.

YMMV

 

[Jusatele]

the question is designed not for an answer but for you to experiment around with extra tones within a structure and why you are using them
with and what  are the reasons they are there.

So we agreed these tones are in our chords, so we can use them in our soloing
and then when we look at our chords we figure which ones to use over which chords
and which ones we cannot. That is important.

then we look back and see we are enharmonic to our key signature,
so how do we justify such
working backward we see how easy it can be to do this on the fly instead having to build the opposite way the question is designed.

In other words it gets you to break out your arpreggios and stop relying on scales and modes

So I drop the Bb because of the Dominant before tonic rules says I can use this passing tone
and the D because Blues does not stress this in the progression, nor important in the tritone of the dominant of C

I got told I was stretching theory a little far on the D tone

So you now have a study on how to move out of the pentatonic CAGE, unlocking 4 extra tones.
Next month we apply this to I V ii profession using a iv chord substituted for the IV.

 

[Jusatele]

oh by the way, some real kewl answers guys, it is a fun exercise to go over

 

[Jusatele]

Yes, the "mixolodian" part is really just a communications question, not a theory issue.

YMMV

My father bought me my first guitar at 6 years old because I begged for it, then shipped me off for classical guitar lessons for an hour each Saturday and 1/2  an hour on Wednesday. When I was playing a piece we did not interpret it in chords, when told to go to a mode we Looked at it as fingering extensions on the neck, I wasn't changing keys, So when I am told to do it I just do
At 12 I bought a Fender Mustang, and the entire world was set on it's ear as far as I was concerned.

 

[stubhead]

if everyone improvised for bars on end using the same scales over the same chord progressions it would get old fast

Gasp! You don't mean you're... TIRED of electric blues/rock guitar? Gosh, just when it was starting to get popular*...... ccasion14:

The single best book on jazz theory that I've ever used is "Thinking In Jazz" by Paul F. Berliner. Reading music is really helpful here, but he also goes over a lot of the concepts of melodic construction verbally, and in interviews with great players. Lewis Porter's "Coltrane" biography also has a lot of examples. Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" is pretty much required, as a reference if nothing else. I just recently discovered "The Music of Miles Davis" by Lex Giel. I'm going to inflict it upon a couple of my most advanced students, because it manages to  succinctly pack quite a nice overview of jazz theory into the framework of Miles' music. I got way deep into this stuff in the 90's, and I kept noticing - for every "rule" of chord substitution, there was always someone out there violating it, quite beautifully. It behooves one to remember that jazz musicians are out there playing around with music, and scholars are writing it down and analyzing it as "theory" postmortum.




*(you're not all alone there, my baby done left me too. About two decades ago....)

 

[stubhead]

I did this separate....

From the 1930's till bebop, the most common "gateway" out of diatonic play was the diminished scale and it's attendant set of chords - m7b5, Dom7b9 etc. This also brought in "tritone substitution" - look it up."Chord Chemistry" and "Advanced Chord Progressions" by Ted Greene go there,  as do any/all books on jazz construction. The bebop guys added "superimposed triads" - play the three notes of a G chord, add the three notes of an Ab chord - what happens? Do you like it? Play the G notes again, add a Bbm triad - what happens? Do you like it? Explore ALL POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS - it's no wonder nobody wanted to be Coltrane's roommate on the road. :toothy12:

ALSO: scales are boring to listen too, if it's played seven up, seven down... scale fragments are interesting. So:

1-2-3-4, 2-3-4-5, 3-4-5-6
8-7-6-5, 7-6-5-4 etc.
And in threes: 1-2-3, 2-3-4 3-4-5 etc. up and down:
6-7-8, 5-6-7, 4-5-6 etc.

4-3-2-1, 6-5-4-3, 5-4-3-2, 7-6-5-4, 9-8-7-6 etc.

Chord arpeggios, touched on above, are critically important. In threes and fours:
1-3-5, 2-4-6, 3-5-7, 4-6-8 up and down backwards and forwards. 1-3-5-7, 2-4-6-8, 3-5-7-9 etc

There's always four permutations. The fragment can rise or fall, and the movement of the fragments can be up or down. It never hurts to repeat one once in a while.

If you listen to good music, you will hear the fragments above in hundreds of places. Just working through one scale using all the possible combinations can take weeks. And then there's the five note fragments and the eight note ones, and.... chord arpeggios using altered and five-and-six note chords, and...

I will post more around 2014, when you've learned all this. :toothy10:

 

[Jusatele]

the rootless triads (polychords) I find the most tasty to use, bringing new chords through inversion
I think I want to read that book (or is it a book) by Ted Greene you speak of.
I did Gary Meyers book "Understanding and using chords and chord progressions" a few years back, it got me really into sub-dominant minors for a while.
After all  it is just one huge experiment with sound, I really like to keep expanding instead of stagnating to the same 40 songs like so many of my friends of youth have done.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

IDK, in blues I usually just play the 5th like a minor.  The minor 3rd of the 5th is the dominant 7th of the root.

 

[clewnii]

"Mixiolodian"  is spelled "MIXOLYDIAN"

:icon_thumright:

sorry but i had to.