EVH "Brown Sound" Challenge

I must be crazy because I hate the sound of an SM57 when I'm recording. For me it's always a small diaphragm condenser off-axis pointing in to the cone from about 3 inches off. It always sounds good. Sometimes I set up a large diaphragm condenser the exact same spot on the other side for more options. Neither sounds that much like the amp live but both sound way better than a dynamic to me.  :dontknow:
 
Justinginn said:
I must be crazy because I hate the sound of an SM57 when I'm recording. For me it's always a small diaphragm condenser off-axis pointing in to the cone from about 3 inches off. It always sounds good. Sometimes I set up a large diaphragm condenser the exact same spot on the other side for more options. Neither sounds that much like the amp live but both sound way better than a dynamic to me.  :dontknow:

Nope, you're not crazy ... and you can count me among those who don't like a 57 for guitar amps (disclaimer:  Superlizard is using the 57 in the right fashion .... too close to the speaker, and the proximity of that mic is awful!)

From what you describe, you fall into school of thought #2.  Don't worry, you're not alone!!!  In a sense, so do I because I will blend the 87 and 421 into a composite sound of both mics .... the 87 giving me the clarity and definition, and the 421 giving me everything in between (frequency-wise  :glasses9:)
 
Yeah, the 57 can get real crispy if it's too close.

Myself, gotta play around with other type/brand mics for fun... right now I'm sporting a pair of 57s.  That Neumann (or similar) has
been on my list for a while...

"Neumann!"

"Hello, Neumann"
"Hellooo, Jerry"

Beyer M160 though is prolly more up my alley.
 
Superlizard said:
Yeah, the 57 can get real crispy if it's too close.

Myself, gotta play around with other type/brand mics for fun... right now I'm sporting a pair of 57s.  That Neumann (or similar) has
been on my list for a while...

That brings up another interesting point in the Quest for the Holy Tone.
Mic placement is often more important than mic choice.  Modern recording techiques, when you think about it, are very unnatural.  We close-mic everything to get seperation in our tracks, but when was the last time you judged your tone with your ear 3" away from the speaker?  The microphone is acting as your ear, but without the added benifit of being attached to a brain that can ignore extranious sounds.  It's kinda like talking to someone in an empty apartment ... you notice the echo at first, but your brain is able to ignore it when you are paying attention to the person speaking.  Microphones don't have that luxury ... they pick up whatever is loudest/closest to them.  The magic is finding the distance/placement where the amp comes through loud and clear, and you don't get any ugly reflections from frequencies bouncing off the walls and back to the mic, but you are not so close that the amp's sound becomes "hyper-real".
 
AndyG said:
That brings up another interesting point in the Quest for the Holy Tone.
Mic placement is often more important than mic choice.  Modern recording techiques, when you think about it, are very unnatural.  We close-mic everything to get seperation in our tracks, but when was the last time you judged your tone with your ear 3" away from the speaker?  The microphone is acting as your ear, but without the added benifit of being attached to a brain that can ignore extranious sounds.  It's kinda like talking to someone in an empty apartment ... you notice the echo at first, but your brain is able to ignore it when you are paying attention to the person speaking.  Microphones don't have that luxury ... they pick up whatever is loudest/closest to them.  The magic is finding the distance/placement where the amp comes through loud and clear, and you don't get any ugly reflections from frequencies bouncing off the walls and back to the mic, but you are not so close that the amp's sound becomes "hyper-real".

So true!
Now that I go direct with the AXE-FX, its all about IRs.
Check out RedWirez if you are interested in cab IRs. Just starting to play with them and mixing them. Neat stuff.
 
Cool... more input.

I'll get around to these (Tburst too) this weekend - right after I receive my Beyer M160 mic.  :icon_thumright:
 
TBurst Std said:
Understood,

Well I will let the cat out of the bag on the clip I posted. Make sure you listen through good monitors.
While stereo, it is 2 mono tracks recording simultaneously, one left, one right.
One side is a Fractal AXE-FX, the other side is a Plexi.
You guess which is which :)

The ambient 'verb on the right side makes it very difficult to really hear the tone....

If I had to guess, I'd go with the left "Plexi" (but it's pretty woofy) and the right the Fractal.

But my spidey sense tells me for some reason that both sides are not tube amps, but that could
simply be due to the fact your mp3 is only 256kbps and therefore the hi-end detail is murky.

 
Superlizard said:
TBurst Std said:
Understood,

Well I will let the cat out of the bag on the clip I posted. Make sure you listen through good monitors.
While stereo, it is 2 mono tracks recording simultaneously, one left, one right.
One side is a Fractal AXE-FX, the other side is a Plexi.
You guess which is which :)

The ambient 'verb on the right side makes it very difficult to really hear the tone....

If I had to guess, I'd go with the left "Plexi" (but it's pretty woofy) and the right the Fractal.

But my spidey sense tells me for some reason that both sides are not tube amps, but that could
simply be due to the fact your mp3 is only 256kbps and therefore the hi-end detail is murky.

Right click for properties on the file, go to summary.
AXE-FX on left, reamped into Plexi is on the right.
My reamping skills are not the best.
 
TBurst Std said:
Right click for properties on the file, go to summary.
AXE-FX on left, reamped into Plexi is on the right.
My reamping skills are not the best.

So you're feeding the AXE data/recording into the Plexi (off of AXE memory perhaps or at least your recording)... not plugging
the guitar straight into the Plexi and playing... ie at best, "half-t00b" on the right side.

A ha - so my spidey sense was right!  I thought it seemed off a hair; couldn't hear those "t00b" transients.
 
So for all intents and purposes, I've "finalized" 3 prior clips (dry) with the appropriate studio "magic":

Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Edward:

http://storage1.soundclick.com/jarry_DL/51/05/vipdownload/lizardpie+ainttalkinboutedwardfinal.mp3

You Really Got Edward:

http://streamer2.soundclick.com/jarry_DL/23/04/vipdownload/lizardpie+youreallygotedwardfinal.mp3

Edward On Fire:

http://streamer2.soundclick.com/jarry_DL/34/02/vipdownload/lizardpie+edwardonfirefinal.mp3

I think this proves at least some of the "brown sound" tone is produced in the studio... compression + EQ especially.
 
That's much closer than the last go-round. Still a bit too much reverb, I think, but I could be wrong.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but that "brown sound" got its name from the effect a sagging power supply has on the tone (voltage drops (sags) during a brown-out), and the only way to get it is to have a power supply that's nominally correct most of the time, but sags when you wrench out some really gutteral chords that draw more current than the supply can source. That's the theory, anyway. It's possible (albeit dangerous) to achieve the same thing using a variac on the primary of the amp to starve the power tranformer, but you still have to crank the amp up to 11 to get it to happen. So, trying to pull it off with special effects or in post-mix with a normal amp at responsible levels is going to be somewhere near impossible. The power supply isn't going to sag, and without any power brown-out you don't get the "brown sound". Of course, that all assumes such a thing exists in the first place. I mean, who identified this phenomena to begin with? Was it an engineer who had instruments on the amp(s), or some musician's best guess as to what was happening when Eddie kicked his ass?
 
Cagey said:
That's much closer than the last go-round. Still a bit too much reverb, I think, but I could be wrong.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but that "brown sound" got its name from the effect a sagging power supply has on the tone (voltage drops (sags) during a brown-out), and the only way to get it is to have a power supply that's nominally correct most of the time, but sags when you wrench out some really gutteral chords that draw more current than the supply can source. That's the theory, anyway. It's possible (albeit dangerous) to achieve the same thing using a variac on the primary of the amp to starve the power tranformer, but you still have to crank the amp up to 11 to get it to happen. So, trying to pull it off with special effects or in post-mix with a normal amp at responsible levels is going to be somewhere near impossible. The power supply isn't going to sag, and without any power brown-out you don't get the "brown sound". Of course, that all assumes such a thing exists in the first place. I mean, who identified this phenomena to begin with? Was it an engineer who had instruments on the amp(s), or some musician's best guess as to what was happening when Eddie kicked his ass?

Well I totally concur with the power sag thing.

One way to get it as you say is the variac route.

The other way is tube rectification.

BTW, I've got that covered with my Mullard GZ34 in my '67 Deluxe, and my GE 5AR4 in my JTM45RI (modded to 60s specs).   :icon_thumright:

Huge fan of power supply sag (and lower filtering FWIW) in my tone and anyone else's.   :icon_thumright:
 
Cagey said:
I mean, who identified this phenomena to begin with? Was it an engineer who had instruments on the amp(s), or some musician's best guess as to what was happening when Eddie kicked his ass?

My money's on Link Wray.
 
Superlizard said:
Huge fan of power supply sag (and lower filtering FWIW) in my tone and anyone else's.   :icon_thumright:

So... have you removed your chokes and replaced them with resistors yet? Because theoretically, that'll help that scenario. Some pretty serious guys have done some A/B testing and can't tell the difference (no surprise there), but there's a large contingent out there that's convinced power supply chokes affect tone. Of course, that same contingent wonders what effect the metal corners on their speaker bottoms or which brand of capacitor they use has on their tone, too <grin>
 
Superlizard said:
My money's on Link Wray.

That's too easy, since he's pushing up daisies. We need someone we can question, like Charles Manson.
 
Cagey said:
Superlizard said:
Huge fan of power supply sag (and lower filtering FWIW) in my tone and anyone else's.   :icon_thumright:

So... have you removed your chokes and replaced them with resistors yet? Because theoretically, that'll help that scenario. Some pretty serious guys have done some A/B testing and can't tell the difference (no surprise there), but there's a large contingent out there that's convinced power supply chokes affect tone. Of course, that same contingent wonders what effect the metal corners on their speaker bottoms or which brand of capacitor they use has on their tone, too <grin>

Well I am serious about tone, but I don't go to amazing extremes.  I also don't push concepts I haven't tried yet.

I do believe that if the signal goes through it or... if "it" produces the signal, it's gonna affect the tone... whether or not it's perceptible depends on the
ears listening, and as we know... not everyone's ears are equal.

Replacing the choke with a resistor would be an interesting experiment, but I'm more than satisfied with the tone I have to forego any other "tricks".
I can't say if it would make a difference simply because I haven't attempted to do so.

However, as far as caps go, my experience has shown that cheap ceramic disc caps (as in amp volume pot "bright" caps) seem to impart crunchier highs as opposed to
smooth highs (at least until you turn it up to "10" of course).

There's also the carbon comp resistor vs. modern construction resistor argument... among countless others.

Certainly there is BS when it comes to this subject, but far too many people dismiss the entire ball of wax due to their lack of hearing or experience.  As well, many
play with so much clipping and compression that even a mod/tweak which would normally have a major tone effect does little to nothing.

For example - one might think a string is a string, and so they all sound the same.  Well, not all strings are equal tone-wise.  Replace your steel-wound strings with nickel-wound strings, and I
guarantee you'll hear that awful metallic treble on the wound strings (from steel-wound strings) disappear.

Another example - one might say a tube is a tube, but I've got several sets of current-manufactured 12AX7/ECC83s that say otherwise because they all sound different from each other, and more
importantly, sound inferior to the NOS tubes in my stash.

The fact is, some of it is truth.  But if one doesn't educate themselves on the subject, they're left in the dark and don't know who to believe.  Of course, it's just as easy for the neophytes
to cry "BS!" on an internet chat board over facts and/or laugh at how say Eric Johnson can hear the difference between a carbon 9V vs. an alkaline 9V... as it is for the shrewd guitar parts manufacturer
to make BS claims about their stompbox getting the "brown sound".

Bottom line is if one is serious about their tone, they will theorize, discuss, experiment and learn.  Those that aren't serious won't bother to put the time in, and instead assume their hard-earned
$$$ will do the work for them.  The latter are the ones who get suckered by the manufacturers every time; a captive audience.
 
Cagey said:
Superlizard said:
My money's on Link Wray.

That's too easy, since he's pushing up daisies. We need someone we can question, like Charles Manson.

I say Link Wray cuz he's the earliest example that I know of who had a brownish crunchy sound... no doubt he had
his amps cranked and those tube rectifiers were sagging like crazy.
 
Superlizard said:
I say Link Wray cuz he's the earliest example that I know of who had a brownish crunchy sound... no doubt he had
his amps cranked and those tube rectifiers were sagging like crazy.

You realize we're talking about a guy who ripped holes in his speaker to get his "sound", right? He wasn't looking for any kind of "tone", he was looking for raucous dirt/distortion to create a mood . Not that there's anything wrong with that. But, I think it's a bit much to call that a "brown" sound. His tendency to play close to the bridge had a lot more to do with his sound than anything else.
 
Superlizard said:
TBurst Std said:
Right click for properties on the file, go to summary.
AXE-FX on left, reamped into Plexi is on the right.
My reamping skills are not the best.

So you're feeding the AXE data/recording into the Plexi (off of AXE memory perhaps or at least your recording)... not plugging
the guitar straight into the Plexi and playing... ie at best, "half-t00b" on the right side.

A ha - so my spidey sense was right!  I thought it seemed off a hair; couldn't hear those "t00b" transients.

Not quite right. Guitar signal was run into the AXE-FX as well as a separate dry signal straight. Both then into an AI / DAW. The dry was then reamped into my plexi and cab, miked and recorded into the DAW. So 3 separate tracks from one playing instance. I omitted the dry signal and hard panned the AXE left and the plexi right.
 
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