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Don't solder to pots - Use solder lugs

I see you did well in your physics classes </sarcasm>

I never said soldering to the pot's body was a "hack job". I'm simply pointing out a better way to do the same thing without risking the integrity or life expectancy of the part. Not only that, it's an easier method. I don't know why that bothers you so much. If you don't want to do it, don't. I could not care less if I were paid to do so.
 
I just finished using Cagey's solder lugs and I am very pleased with the results.  I still have a question despite all the discussion, physics lessons, solder tips and talk of ground loops.  I just want to make sure that my particular scenario is covered.

Before I read the various opinions on copper foil shielding in control cavities, I lined my VIP cavity with copper.  I understand the jury is out on whether it does or doesn't shield against noise but I don't feel like taking it out, it's kind of pretty at the very least.  So I plan to just leave it.

Then I read some threads on common grounding points using stakon terminals and star grounding systems.  This approach to grounding makes sense and is compatible with the lugs.  Anything that avoids solder on pots is okay in my book.

So I soldered using the lugs.  Now it occurs to me that those lugs are going to come in contact with the foil which is potentially one big ground.  A common grounding point will also come into contact with the foil. 

Now comes my question:  do I have a problem here or am I over thinking this?  My lugs, bridge and jack will be grounded to a point and all will be touching the foil through that screw.  If I understand everything correctly, this will cause a ground loop which is generally undesirable and just bad form.  Any suggestions?
 
You're overthinking it. Having those pots in contact with the shield foil is somewhere between a Good Thing and a Non-issue. And don't worry about ground loops. I don't know where all the talk of that came from on the various music forums, but it's not an issue. Must've sounded hi-tech or something to some dingbat or another, so everybody started repeating it until it became de facto dogma.
 
You are ok CP. Ground loops are in fact a real problem. They are definately something to avoid. This is why the strat wiring has been revised so much. It's not some mythological phenomenon or some sort of conspiracy created by the democrats like some would lead you to believe.
 
I'm not saying ground loops aren't real, they are, but they don't exist inside guitars any more than table saws exist inside puppies.
 
Cagey said:
I'm not saying ground loops aren't real, they are, but they don't exist inside guitars any more than table saws exist inside puppies.

it's funny how jack CB and cagey are all professionals, smart and educated and say there is no such problem in a guitar as a ground loop and some people must argue...

wattage can be converted into btu's and energy is never lost it's only transferred, if a part has a 2 watt ratting it can dissipate 2 watts and maintain a stable temperature. above 2 watts the temp will rise and not find point where dissipation equals input because it cant radiate heat to the air and other parts as fast as heat is converted from electricity the temperaturte rises unchecked untill failure, cagey argument holds water but there are other factors involved, watts dont point to a specific temperature and it's presumably the temperature that causes the failure whether it's from electricity passing through the traces or a soldering iron. i never took a class on thermo dynamics so i cant elaborate on what must be known to determine temperature but yes it is posible to have a hi power device attached to the pot and have it never fail like if it's very cold outside or if much of the heat is dissipated to the air directly and not to the pot as the temp will not be enough to destroy it. and he also elaborates that it is the traces and wiper that have the low rating.

watts is a power measurement and is used in electricity as well as acoustics, and thermal measurements and is technically correct for any sort of power measurement but less commonly used in some feilds. watts can be use as a thermal measurement but is not a measurement of temperature, it's a measurement of thermal power like btu's.

as far as which iron to use and how to use it depends on skill. the most damage i have done to pots was done with a 15 watt iron an old one that'd barely reach the melting point of the solder, it takes soo long to get it hot that the heat spreads through the whole pot and it goes bad, not that you cant use a 15 watt iron im just saying dont use MY 15 watt iron as it's a POS. 25 watts is normally enough but if you are ready with everything when you need it i like a 45 watt iron. it gets it hot fast and gets the job done asap. less time on the pot means less chance of damage as long as you never get it too hot with a too large iron you need to regulate the heat by not holding it on the part too long, heat it till the solder melts and remove heat youre done! more power means the heat will be more localized and less total energy is put into the part so it therefor will dissipate out of the part in less time, and much of the part will never see the higher temperatures.

the concept also works in welding, aluminum tends to take a while to cool as all the welding heat is dissipated into the material and it is difficult to get it hot enough. welding it with lower power often takes even longer to cool to the point that you actually soften the part requiring further heat treatment while more amps and faster welding cools faster and gives a stronger part but too many amps and welding too fast will crack the part. high temperature alloys take few amps to reach their very high melting point and little time to cool because the lower heat dissipation rate means the heat stays where you are welding more or less, and less total energy enters the part.

but if you have stainless steel or plastic pots you need to ground the guitar somehow, yes it is posible to solder to stainless steel but you go and try it with an iron and electrical solder and tell me what kind of results you get. i recently rewired a strat with bourns pots and used a large eyelet and it was neet and easy and i wondered why ive tried making the wireing look like the oems all these years.. it is really kind of a pain to do the grounds on the back of the pots.
 
Wow! Somebody has their CPR merit badge! Way to bring that back from the dead.

I speak from experience. You can doubt question or try to debunk with unrelated totally exaggerated comparisons.

Cagey you are a very knowledgable guy and sometimes I rib you but it is in jest  :icon_jokercolor:. I really allow you to get under my skin when you speak of something with such certainty and I happen to feel that I am right because I have first hand experience with something. This is my fault and not yours. The world would be such a better place if everyone would just agree with me :toothy11:.I respect your opinions and advice so I will not force you to continue to a point where I will not anymore.
 
I've done more damage waiting on 15-watt guns than with high-powered ones. I now use a 40 watt pencil and the big 100/160 watt gun, just get them both out and and plugged in. In the past I have successfully wired entire guitars with just the gun, just on-and-OFF the parts quicker, I guess. Use heat sinks on the caps, and the pot lugs are done ZAPPO-fast anyway. I always try to devise a common ground point to avoid too much metal in the loop. And TOO MUCH WORK, some of the web pages designed to proudly show off what a great grounding job some guy did have, like, QUADRUPLY- redundant grounds?  :icon_scratch: I've used stakons, even sunk an eyebolt into the side of the cavity for the rocket-science wiring with 11 grounds. God-DAMN Superswitches.... :evil4:

I like to fiddle with a guitar until I get the tonal adjustments as close to what I want as possible, and it's influenced by the wood, the pickups, and a few other things that can't be known ahead of time, unless you just build the same thing over and over. Wiring a guitar for easy re-wiring is a whole other art, as far as I'm concerned - you can "tune" a pot with a resistor; and since capacitors work in parallel you can start with a low-value one and add another on top without de-soldering, etc.

http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/potm.htm

Ever since I started testing ALL pots and found that the "250's" were often 220, 200, even 180's, I've been buying "500's" only (480, 420 :toothy12:) and lowering them as needed. It doesn't matter how good your soldering technique is if your tone and volume pots only seem to have two settings... :laughing7:

I'm pretty sure the entire ground-to-the-pots thing came about as a production technique where one department of the (Gibson) factory is assembling wiring harnesses, and another department just pops them in. It's irrelevant to me.
 
Cagey said:
I'm not saying ground loops aren't real, they are, but they don't exist inside guitars any more than table saws exist inside puppies.

True story:  the Jack Russell Terrier down the street from me tried to bite the spinning blade on a circular saw.  Does that count?
 
No, that just goes to show that Jack Russells really are every bit as stupid as they seem to be. Although, to be fair, how in the hell are they supposed to know a spinning circular saw is a dangerous thing to put in your mouth? It's not like they read the paper or do construction work. Probably should have locked the blade guard back and spun the thing up a few times to let him learn about such things on his own <grin>
 
pabloman said:
Wow! Somebody has their CPR merit badge! Way to bring that back from the dead.

I speak from experience. You can doubt question or try to debunk with unrelated totally exaggerated comparisons.

Cagey you are a very knowledgable guy and sometimes I rib you but it is in jest  :icon_jokercolor:. I really allow you to get under my skin when you speak of something with such certainty and I happen to feel that I am right because I have first hand experience with something. This is my fault and not yours. The world would be such a better place if everyone would just agree with me :toothy11:.I respect your opinions and advice so I will not force you to continue to a point where I will not anymore.

i guess i didn't really need to get into that. ya both had valid sides to the argument, watts dont equal temp, and watts do equal heat, as little as that makes sense to some (it makes sense to me) both are true. wow i gues i could have just said that :doh:
 
Cagey said:
No, that just goes to show that Jack Russells really are every bit as stupid as they seem to be. Although, to be fair, how in the hell are they supposed to know a spinning circular saw is a dangerous thing to put in your mouth? It's not like they read the paper or do construction work. Probably should have locked the blade guard back and spun the thing up a few times to let him learn about such things on his own <grin>

In all seriousness, I think she reacted to the sound.  She's pretty squirrely - years of careful overbreeding.
 
Yeah, my pseudo-sister-in-law has a pair of them, and I don't know how she tolerates them. I think she just pretends to like them because they cost so much. I know if it were me, I'd have cut my losses a long time ago.
 
Cagey said:
Yeah, my pseudo-sister-in-law has a pair of them, and I don't know how she tolerates them. I think she just pretends to like them because they cost so much. I know if it were me, I'd have cut my losses a long time ago.

I hear that - you shoulda seen the bill to repair the little psycho.
 
pabloman said:
Is the saw ok???

Oh yeah - the saw definitely won.  It was kinda like a jersey barrier vs a Smartcar:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY71N6pM6LI&feature=related[/youtube]
 
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