Diminished Sevenths - nerdy post

[ironeddie]

The other day I was at school, and I discovered that there are only 3 diminished seventh chords!  I bet many of you already knew that but I was just blown away about it! Anyway I guess my question is this:  Does anyone have any modern examples that use a diminished seventh chord as a pivot chord to subtly change keys? I've been doing some looking around but can only really find classical examples. 

ps.  i wrote a little blog post about how there are only 3 diminished seventh chords and how that all works out here for the theory nuts.  http://guitardedwebtrickery.blogspot.com/2011/10/theory-in-practice.html
:rock-on:

 

[anorakDan]

Check out the music of Roddy Frame. He also recorded under the name Aztec Camera until fairly recently. He uses all the really cool chords.

Go here: http://www.killermontstreet.net/
That's the main fan site, there is a section that has all the tabs for all his songs.

 

[stubhead]

It's been a "pivot" chord in mainstream jazz since the 1940's. I think it was Duke Ellington who started up using it, certainly "Caravan" would qualify. However, they weren't using it to get stuck in it, it was just used as a systematic gateway to get to the I, IV, V, or the relative minors. There's an awful lot of nifty sliding licks you can do on a guitar when you realize your "passing" chord repeats every 3 frets...
but music has to resolve eventually, or it will be DISTURBING.... :headbang:

However, you're going to find a whaleload more info on it if you call it by the other name, Minor 7b5 or m7b5. I have a permanent bookmark in Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" where there's a whole page of them. "Thinking in Jazz" by Paul F. Berliner devotes a couple of sections to different modulation techniques (which this is). There are ELEVEN pages devoted to it in "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine. Those are the two best books for learning music that I know of.

If you're looking for certain songs that move only or mostly in minor thirds, I have to root around a bit. That kind of specifically-weird, un-settled music that doesn't happily resolve was more in the late 50's & early 60's jazz, and back in some of the classical experiments of people like Debussy, Ravel, Erik Satie... you can't hum along, so it tended to die on the vine.

I'm sure there are some competent online sources of music theory, but look for the m7b5 too - it'll definitely spit up more. I can't sit in from of a computer and play guitar at the same time, so I can best recommend those two books. Levine if you want to saddle right up and Berliner if you want to know the background and the whys if it.

ADDED:
Epistrophy
Autumn Leaves
My Favorite Things

 

[drewfx]

However, you're going to find a whaleload more info on it if you call it by the other name, Minor 7b5 or m7b5.

Diminished 7th is not the same thing as the more common m7b5 (which is also known as "half diminished 7th").

dim7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7 = C Eb Gb Bbb (A) = 3 minor 3rds stacked; interval between b3 and bb7 is a diminished 5th.

m7b5 = 1 b3 b5 b7 = C Eb Gb Bb = 2 minor 3rds with a major 3rd on top; interval between b3 and b7 is a perfect 5th, hence "half diminished".

 

[stubhead]

In most sheet music books, Cdim or C° denotes a diminished seventh chord (a four note chord) with root C, and Cm-5 or Cmb5 denotes a diminished triad with root C. However, in some modern jazz books and some music theory literature, Cdim or C° denotes a diminished triad, while Cdim7 or C°7 denotes a diminished seventh chord.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_chord

A diminished seventh chord is a four note chord that comprises a diminished triad plus the interval of a diminished seventh (alternatively regarded enharmonically as a major sixth) above the root. Thus it is (1, ♭3, ♭5, double flat7), or enharmonically (1, ♭3, ♭5, 6), of any major scale; for example, C diminished-seventh would be (C, E♭, G♭, Bdouble flat), or enharmonically (C, E♭, G♭, A). It occurs as a leading-tone seventh chord in harmonic minor and can be represented by the integer notation {0, 3, 6, 9}.

Because of this it can also be viewed as four notes all stacked in intervals of a minor third. The diminished seventh contains two diminished fifths, which often resolve inwards.[2]

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_seventh_chord

This one goes round and round, in classical music you're far more likely to run across the notes written out - which is hard to read, for me. I can sight-read, slowly, a single note line but guitar chords, aak - I have a lot of admiration for the people who can.

But in jazz or pop or rock chord charts it's almost assumed that you'll be leaving a note (or more) out of complex chords. And the few times I've seen a chord chart that I was expected to learn, the m7b5 meant the four-note, stacked minor-thirds one, the fun slippery one. In jazz music, it's so often followed by a 4th-down 7#9 it's almost surprising not to see it = Em7b5 -> A7b9. If I saw that, I wouldn't think of C# as not belonging in there, but I'm pretty sure you could find examples where it is, and isn't, a bad note (Miles' comment notwithstanding).

There's gotta be a music forum where they debate these things endlessly - probably dozens. (I don' wanna know....)*

*(r.e. Fleetwood Mac discussion)

 

[AutoBat]

i diminish my chords by turning the volume down slightly.
it works on every chord, not just 3.
[me=AutoBat]sprints out of  the music theory thread.[/me]

 

[reluctant-builder]

i diminish my chords by turning the volume down slightly.
it works on every chord, not just 3.
[me=AutoBat]sprints out of  the music theory thread.[/me]

:laughing7:

 

[Cagey]

i diminish my chords by turning the volume down slightly.
it works on every chord, not just 3.
[me=AutoBat]sprints out of  the music theory thread.[/me]

Hehe! That's me! Although, I do my best to treat all my chords equally. They're not diminished, they're just "differently abled".

 

[ironeddie]

Wow! I'm really diggin' the wealth of theoretical knowledge.  Now just to go and put it into practice eh?