A thought,,,,higher count posters please read

[TBurst Std]

Hello,

We seem to have had an influx of newer people who ask valid questions, but maybe not in the way we expect. At times, we have also had requests for comments on selections, choices, how to's from these folk.

How about we setup a new sub-forum, maybe titled Resources. The intent for the general user of that sub-forum is that it would be read only.

I am not sure about our forums capabilities and if this sub-forum could be managed with a more "wiki" type way or not.
My vision though is a sub-forum that our more senior members and builders could provide how to's/not's, examples, how to make choices, basic tools and usage, etc. Maybe even videos.

What caused me to post this: there was a recent post about a pickguard maybe interfering with a bridge. My though was, just use your feeler gauge to know if it is or isn't.
That led to me, if asked, what are the most basic tools needed for setup - thinking other than screwdrivers, wrenches and a capo, if I was only allowed 1 more tool, it would be a feeler gauge. Are there better tools, sure, but I could make do with that.

If this seems a good idea, I'll set up a poll to quantize how many would be willing to author, submit, and manage content within the sub-forum.

 

[stratamania]

Perhaps a Wiki type approach might be an idea. But to a degree I wonder how much it might be used, of course that is not a reason not to do it just that you can lead a horse to water etc.

We already have detailed build threads, tips and tricks, stickies etc and often we end up providing links to them to answer questions. If there was some way of linking to existing content or reusing it that might be a good idea.

There is also the Internet/WWW and Google or various other search engines and a wealth of information available - but often it seems people would rather post a question than put in any time towards finding a solution.

I recognise the post that prompts this thread and any comments I put here should be in no way interpreted as directed towards that thread in particular or any individual.

Lately I have however pondered the following:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Something similar to this thread, should we have a central resource to refer people to?
[*]Why do folks jump in to guitar assembly when they have no tools or set up skills?
[*]A thread gets posted by a new user asking a question that is vague but an answer is given and could they confirm...no reply whatsoever from the person who opened the thread, but then other forum members start adding their own version of an answer, but the OP is missing in action
[*]Variation of the above a clear question is raised and an answer provided, and the answer does not get acknowledged but rather the user opens another thread asking another basic question, rinse and repeat
[*]Something is answered but then it raises another question - sometimes genuine but I wonder sometimes if people are really having that much difficulty or playing dumb and basically trolling
[*]It would take time to maintain such a resource as suggested but in the end may save time if it really was used.
[*]Would we be just flogging a dead horse?
[/list]

Just some thoughts and ramblings. But interested to hear views of other long term members.

 

[Rick]

I ponder the same thing as stratman.  Why do people start a project without cracking open a book or do a basic google search before building a guitar?  Short of referring them to The Aaron's twin neck build and having patience there's not much we can do.  As to the answer, I believe what Shakespeare said applies, "what fools these mortals be."  But that's what also makes us charming.  Damned if you do, and damned if you don't on this one.

 

[mayfly]

I think that people believe that it is a lot easier than it actually is.  So they jump in thinking they can just wing it, run into a snag or two, then get 'upset' when they realize the large size of the pool that they jumped into.  If they are not going to start by reading a book on the subject, then sadly they are not going to read a resources sub-forum.    :dontknow:

 

[TBurst Std]

My thought is a Sub Forum for New to Building Guitars
Within that are topic headings such as:
Setting Action
Vibrato bridge setup
Setting neck relief
Tools to have
Common Terminology
Wiring basics
Wiring examples

And such.  I would view this as posts as content are monitored.  People couldn’t randomly post/comment to it. In such it could serve as a repository of knowlede

Right now, for a newbie, our knowledge is largely fragmented. In addition it’s largely is search only.  A lot of people don’t even know exactly what to search for.

If it’s not a good idea then kill it. Just tossing the thought out there.

 

[TBurst Std]

I think that people believe that it is a lot easier than it actually is.  So they jump in thinking they can just wing it, run into a snag or two, then get 'upset' when they realize the large size of the pool that they jumped into.  If they are not going to start by reading a book on the subject, then sadly they are not going to read a resources sub-forum.    :dontknow:

I agree Trevor. If we could make a prerequisite of signing up here a validation of reading say Dan Erlwines book, that would be great.
My copy is actually beside me now as I was referring to it with a friend tonight.

 

[zebra]

I think a lot of this is due to folks coming down with a mix of boredom and impulsiveness as a result of the whole COVID thing, and as others have previously said, jumped into a pool without realizing its depth.  Although we do have some really comprehensive build thread and some great stickied threads (as others have already mentioned), the collective knowledge of the forum is fragmented, and due to the "you don't know what you don't know" phenomenon, sometimes it's hard to know what questions to ask / how to search. 

That being said, sometimes folks can be a bit flaky and lazy, if not operating in bad faith (ie, asking questions they're not actually interested in getting the answers too).  Nothing you can really do about that - besides just not responding to posts if you've felt you've already answered such a questions one or two or three times before...

I know I've learned a ton here, and the way I did it was by reading, rather than asking...and from there, figuring out who had the most reliable info, where community consensus was on certain matters, etc.  I certainly read a lot more than I post!  When I do post, it's often because google searches have yielding so much...garbage.  There are so many voices shouting so many uninformed and/or unsupported opinions, it's tedious to sort through.  I know that here, most folks won't speak without knowledge, or if going be word of mouth, qualify it and disclose their source, so follow-up can be made. 

I think some type of wiki could be really useful, and it would be worthwhile at least discussing possibilities.  I've personally considered doing a "partscaster design flow" document.  I think it would be helpful both for newbz and those of us (like me) who suffer from "I can't settle on a single idea because I want to try everything" syndrome!

 

[Rick]

Mmmmh ... if you really want to do this, there should be a section called the library, a list of books that should be on the bookshelf of anyone interested in building guitars. It can be books like erlwines but also some history books on specific manufacturers, and books that describe different guitars.

 

[DaveT]

I use harleytechtalk.com a lot.
They have a 'Stickied Posts and Information' section.
'Somebody' with Admin rights shoves any really good info in there, usually as a hyperlink to the relevant thread with a bit of explanation.
Make it clear that should be your first port of call to see if your question is already answered and off we go!

There are always people that ignore it of course.

 

[ejm]

First things first; "That led to me, if asked, what are the most basic tools needed for setup - thinking other than screwdrivers, wrenches and a capo, if I was only allowed 1 more tool, it would be a feeler gauge. Are there better tools, sure, but I could make do with that."

Just off the top of my head, after all of the very basic tools (screwdrivers, hex wrenches, pliers, needle nose, etc), it seems like the tool that I use the most might be a 6 inch metal ruler with a scale in both millimeters and 64th inch.
The main reason I use this is to check the action at the 17th fret (or wherever you prefer).

For me, I don't obsessively tweak and adjust guitars. I have guitars where it has been years since I adjusted the truss rod, and other where I've never.
When I change strings I usually sight down the neck to make sure that it looks reasonably where it should be.
I'll check the curvature of the strings at the bridge on guitars where it is adjustable (Strats) and adjust accordingly. I'll check the string height at the 17th fret and adjust accordingly.
The other little item that comes in handy here is a radius gauge. You can buy one, but I made one out of a piece of cardboard.

It goes without saying that wiring, etc also requires a couple of main items.
- A decent (not necessarily great or top of the line) soldering iron (NOT a soldering GUN).
- A decent (not necessarily great or top of the line) digital volt/ohm meter (DMM or DVM).

So I guess that's four items, huh?
But with those four, you can go a long way.

Nut files? No, not *required*. For several reasons, certainly not for a beginner.
If you want to do it fine, but I'd acquire the other things first.

Ok, now for the second part.......the new resource forum.

Being Mr. Negativity pants, I don't think it would be worth it.
Too many variables with regards to people and their methods and their accuracy of instructions and their literacy when writing things up and............on and on and on.

I recently bought a new Warmoth neck for the first time.
In the attempts to get it right the first time, I did a TON of research.
I established a rapport with a Warmoth sales guy, who was excellent by the way.
I did a lot of research on the internet: Google, Youtube, etc.
And I also did something that probably 99% of all people DO NOT do, but should seem obvious: I searched THIS FORUM.
Keep in mind when you do all of these searches that you need to be creative with your search terms.

Now, one thing that is a problem with this site: It seems like people don't post a lot of valuable information.
Which I guess is to be expected; After all, it IS the internet.
AND...........they don't post reviews.
AND.......they don't post any negative or constructive criticism.
Keep in mind that negatives, when posted in the right way (which goes back to humans and their personalities), could not only benefit us the consumer, but also benefit Warmoth if they monitor this forum.

As far as level of experience goes and reading books, I don't know if there is an easy answer to that one.
I think in the end it just takes time and experience.
And you know what they say: Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.
However, part of that gets thrown directly back on to the individual.
If you don't do your research ahead of time (or at least try, fer Crissakes), you're probably going to get that "experience" that you didn't want.

 

[Seamas]

Now, one thing that is a problem with this site: It seems like people don't post a lot of valuable information.
AND.......they don't post any negative or constructive criticism.

My experience is 100% opposite of this.

My first posts here were in regard to my first purchase, and first build. A guitar I chose to finish myself.
I put out questions and I got a tremendous amount of incredibly detailed and valuable info.
I read though question threads all the time.
If I didn't know better I'd think you are referring to a different website.

 

[BroccoliRob]

would a FAQ section on the message board end up just being duplicating info from the Warmoth.com Webzone? the kinds a people who already dont read that aren't any more likely to read an FAQ here

 

[stratamania]

Now, one thing that is a problem with this site: It seems like people don't post a lot of valuable information.
AND.......they don't post any negative or constructive criticism.

My experience is 100% opposite of this.

My first posts here were in regard to my first purchase, and first build. A guitar I chose to finish myself.
I put out questions and I got a tremendous amount of incredibly detailed and valuable info.
I read though question threads all the time.
If I didn't know better I'd think you are referring to a different website.

Indeed there is a lot of valuable information posted and honest opinion.

I even have a build thread ongoing that has a neck in it where I ended up removing most of the finish and the nut as it was not slotted correctly as both needed attention.

 

[NedRyerson]

I think the main challenge of this project will be ongoing maintenance.

It's a great idea from a big picture standpoint.  What could happen, I think, is that it'll get a big rush of interest and participation at first, but then slowly die off until that committee of 6-10 people whittle down to 1.  Then the 1 loses interest either because 1 person can't do it all or 1 person gets sick of doing it all.

Something that EJM alluded to was the lack of content follow-through.  While I may not 100% agree that it's endemic to UW, there is some truth to it in a broader sense outside of this site's boundaries. It can be hard. Some are not natural writers and want to avoid looking stupid. Some are Dunning-Kruger writers and can't produce comprehensible, coherent content to save their lives, even if they think they've written a masterpiece (this is not aimed at those who deliberately go down the "weirdo" track ).

Some just don't have the time or patience to sit at a keyboard and focus their thoughts. Others run off at the mouth and what started as a guitar review has become -- 12 pages later -- a treatise on socio-political upheaval in 16th century Europe (I don't like reading the Reranch pages because it's just beyond wordy and formatted on screen like it was still 1997 and we're using 14" monitors).

Bear in mind, this is just one man's opinion based on observation of the behavior of the consumer Internet over decades. I could be proven wrong here, and if so, I'd be delighted because that means a single repository of invaluable information, constantly being maintained and tweaked for freshness.

But in the end, it all comes back to the "leading horse to water" and all that.

 

[mayfly]

I think the main challenge of this project will be ongoing maintenance.

Yup.  I think this is an excellent observation.

 

[Rick]

It could be done as a time capsule, with an ask to the people in the future to create a new time capsule, say in 2031.  This website has been going since at least May 2007, so I don't see why it won't last another 10 years in some form.  Then it would be up to the people in the future, if they don't want to be bothered or update, probably because they'll have the plug memory chips like Johnny Mnemonic ... well that's on them.  For some reason I think BRob would like this.

The year is 2021 and I can carry 80gigs of data in my head!
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuquoZjhTS8[/youtube]

The year 2021 looks pretty grim.

 

[BroccoliRob]

It could be done as a time capsule, with an ask to the people in the future to create a new time capsule, say in 2031.  This website has been going since at least May 2007, so I don't see why it won't last another 10 years in some form.  Then it would be up to the people in the future, if they don't want to be bothered or update, probably because they'll have the plug memory chips like Johnny Mnemonic ... well that's on them.  For some reason I think BRob would like this.

The year is 2021 and I can carry 80gigs of data in my head!
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuquoZjhTS8[/youtube]

The year 2021 looks pretty grim.

Many years ago i once dated a girl who said she identified with the titular (not being gross, its a real word) Johnathan mnemonic. she had double majored in American history and computer science, so she knows everything from USA to USB. We first met at a protest at my college (well... a college), when she asked me what i thought about women's rights and i told her "it's better than women's wrongs" and she laughed and we made out.

i think she loved that movie char (short for character) more than me, which is probably why we broke up. but also because she thought i was a juggalo even tho i kept explaining that not all clown posses are insane, we were just a chill group of Bros who liked to wear novelty size shoes and rainbow wigs sometimes. It's not like we got into anything weird. Anyway sometimes I #reminiscence (that means think of something in the past fondly while in the present) about her even though it was never gonna work. Anyway I thought the movie was a little unrealistic

 

[NedRyerson]

Definitely unrealistic since I just bought a 256 GB flash drive at a local grocery store. Therefore, one can't tell me that The Future will be limited to a paltry 80 GBs in a cerebral implant  :laughing7:

EDIT TO ADD:

Plus, if Johnny was carrying more than that in his brain (with the whole risk of seepage and synaptic failure by going over his capacity limit), exactly how much lag would there be when trying to stream that data through a frickin' dolphin?!

 

[stratamania]

Looks like we went back to the future in this thread, all the way to 2021...

perhaps Johnny's memory overload has sent him here...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ix7TUGVYIo[/youtube]

 

[JohnnyHardtail]

Part of issue with inexperienced builders is probably due to social media and Youtube.

People like to use social media to show-off their skills, and their success stories of their DIY guitar builds.  Typically this will show the desirable parts, and less of the complex and time consuming boring tasks.  Because of this its easy for someone to assume that its a simple matter to bolt a guitar together from parts.  One example I noticed, is its really common to see people who have no idea how to set the bridge saddle intonation, and their guitars always sound out of tune.

During covid, Warmoth increased their social media presence to promote their products to a wide audience via Youtube.  That is obviously a marketing choice.  It seems it was a very successful strategy for Warmoth to increase their sales.  They can obviously grow their business as their brand awareness increases.

The downside, is Warmoth can expect complaints when people run into difficulties they did not anticipate, although I'm sure it's nothing new.  There will also be some poorly assembled and damaged guitar parts being sold second hand, which isn't great for their reputation.  Warmoth do not have any responsibility for people's mistakes, so its really up to them if they consider this as a problem or not.

Warmoth could probably add more information about assembly requirements in the FAQ, terms and conditions, etc.  One way would be to make it clear that guitar assembly is a job for professionals.  Assuming people take the time to read, it could reduce to claims for incorrectly specified orders and damaged parts due to poor workmanship.  I'm just not sure if there is anything for Warmoth to gain by doing that.