Baritone Conversion -- Preferred String Size?

[cooltouch]

Hello everybody, this is my first post here. I hope to benefit from the experience of others here.

I've just received my Warmoth Baritone Neck. This particular one is for a Telecaster and is already bolted up to the body. I've got tuners on order and so now I'm wondering what strings I should use. I'm planning on tuning the guitar B to B, but A to A would be great as long as it didn't start sounding too flappy.  I've been thinking that, since I've got a longer string length and a lower pitch, I can probably get by with close to the same size strings I've been using. So I did some searching here on the subject and read through a half-dozen threads or so, so I think I'm getting a handle on things. Ernie Ball makes a 13-72 baritone set and D'Addario makes a 13-62 and a 14-68 set, and I read of one guy who uses the EB Not Even Slinky 12-56s.

One thing I was hoping to gleen from the threads I read through was more about folks' playing styles and how that influenced their string choices, but I didn't come across much in the way of style description other than "rock," or "metal," which tells me zip. My style, I do a lot of string bending and vibrato and I'm most comfortable with 9s on my Fenders and 10s on my Gibsons. I just can't do 10s on my Fenders because they make my fingers hurt too much. Call me a whimp, I don't care. I also play a lot of classical, and classical players don't build up the hard callouses that streel string players do, so this is also part of it.

So right now, I'm leaning toward getting a set of the EB 12-56s and see how they sound tuned B to B. Hey, if I don't like the way they sound or feel, I can just vary the pitch until I do, and then take it from there, I suppose. Anyway, I'd be interested in any feedback you folks care to offer.

Oh, and once I get 'er stringed up, I'll post pics. Just a stock looking black Tele with a loooong neck, but I think she looks kinda cool.

 

[rgand]

Fender puts 13-65 on their Blacktop Baritone Teles with B-B tuning. http://www.fender.com/guitars/telecaster/blacktop-telecaster-baritone/product-0148700.html

My Tele may also get a baritone neck. I will probably try the 12-56 set initially just to see how they work. I'm interested to hear how you like yours.

Now you'll have to cut a hole in the end of the case so the headstock can stick out. :icon_biggrin:

Looking forward to pics and hearing how it plays.

 

[TroubledTreble]

13-65 is a good set to use for B to B. You will notice that you need to over bend to get the same amount of inflection that you would on a standard scale guitar. It takes a little getting used to.

I use heavy strings in general and I like to tune down a half step. I tend to play jazz and blues in standard scale. For baritone I like to play Tom Verilane type stuff and alt. I tend to improvise quite a bit in bari-mode.

You say you like to play classical. Will you be approaching some classical music on the baritone? It's interesting how old familiar songs take on a new life on a baritone. Which neck profile did you get?

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I tried D'Addario .12's for mine at first, but they just felt too slinky, but it's what I could find over the counter since I use Elixer's on everything else.

I was able to source Elixer Baritone 12's (www.juststrings.com, if your local store won't order them) with an unwound 3rd string and I won't use anything else now.

The tension is just right, quite complementary for the scale length, still allows me to bend strings reasonably natural in comparision to my A440 guitars with a standard .10-.46 set.

All in all, had I done a baritone project again, I still think I'd prefer the Tele as the choice.  The low end remains tight and focused so long as you keep a Single Coil pickup as the primary choice for a bridge pickup.  When recording with it, I've found that the humbucker kind of loses its identity in a mix, but the SC sits perfectly, especially on cleaner amp voicings.

 

[cooltouch]

@rgand: No case for the Tele. I reckon I may have to buy a softshell case for a bass so's it will fit. That or a old Fender style bass case, if I want to go the hardshell route.

Yes, after posting the above message, I went and ordered a set of the EB Not Even Slinky 12-56's. I'll post back in this thread to let y'all know what I think.

@TroubledTreble: Thanks for the tips on bending. All the more reason for me to go with a string size I can stretch easier.

I haven't really thought about playing classical on this baritone. Mostly because I don't play classical on a steel string guitar. The feel is just so different. Mostly I'm interested in just having the low end for both chording and solo work.

@TonyFlyingSquirrel: I'll check out the Elixer Baritone 12's  you mention. Ah, good, they don't have a wound G, so I can probably use them.

With regard to your comments, you've pretty much put into words the exact reason why I chose a Tele for my Baritone Project. I like that Big single coil in the bridge position. And I like playing it clean, not overdriven. (I have Gibsons and a Strat that give nice overdriven sounds when I want them.) That big single coil gives a Tele a spank like no other guitar, and I think that, as long as I can maintain a good tension on the strings, this "spank" will transfer over well to a Tele Baritone. I'm really surprised Fender chose a humbucker in the bridge position for their Blacktop Tele Baritone. I'm also kinda surprised they played it so conservative with scale length. Both reasons why I decided to build a Tele Baritone with the Warmoth neck rather than get a Blacktop. Price sure wasn't a consideration. The Warmoth neck, by itself, cost me $348 (plus shipping). I could buy a new Blacktop for another $150. So I decided to sink that amount into a "loaded" Tele body instead.

I dunno about this body I bought though. I bought it off eBay for cheap. The seller claims it was from a Squier Tele, but I think it's a clone. There's not a stamp or a Fender logo or name anywhere on the body, no marks of any kind in fact, including the neck pocket and under the pickguard. And since I'm thinking this is a clone, there's no telling what the pickup quality will be like. Probably some cheapo pickups that are very microphonic, so I'm just gonna slowly go through the guitar, replacing components as I can afford them. First on the list will be the bridge pickup if this  guitar's is too microphonic or thin sounding. When/if that time comes, I'll probably go with one of the Seymour Duncans. I've had good luck with SD pickups.

My neck details are as follows: maple neck, ebony fingerboard, 1-11/16" nut width (I wanted 1-7/8" but they said they couldn't do it and 1-11/16" was the widest they could do), back shape Standard Thin, 6100 frets, 10-16" compound radius, 24 frets (of course), white Tusq nut, MOP dot inlays, white side dots, clear satin nitro finish.

I tell you what, I really like the way it turned out, That 28-5/8" scale makes it feel like a bass when I'm fretting it down close to the open position. The Standard Thin profile is really nice and thin. Reminds me of the Gibson slim 60s tapered profile, but flatter.

I'll be sure to post comments back here once the tuners and strings arrive.

 

[bagman67]

Genuine fender bodies don't generally have markings indicating they are fender products. THe absence of any markings does not necessarily indicate a fake.  Go to The Statosphere on ebay and check out the variations.  The Stratosphere appears to just buy Fender guitars and part them out at a profit.  What the hey,it's a business. 


http://stores.ebay.com/thestratosphere?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

 

[rgand]

I dunno about this body I bought though. I bought it off eBay for cheap. The seller claims it was from a Squier Tele, but I think it's a clone. There's not a stamp or a Fender logo or name anywhere on the body, no marks of any kind in fact, including the neck pocket and under the pickguard. And since I'm thinking this is a clone, there's no telling what the pickup quality will be like.

I wouldn't shortcut on the pickups. As long as the body is solid wood, not plywood, it's probably basswood or agathis. I basically stripped a Squier body and started over with new electronics and a Warmoth neck. With good pickups, the tone is truly amazing. You shouldn't be disappointed.

Bagman is correct. Mine didn't have any markings or anything, either. The serial number and such was all on the neck.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

My GFS NeoTN7 shines some serious tweed goodness from the neck of my Bari-Tele.
I have a custom underwound humbucker for the bridge, about 6.9k, which I play split more than I ever play in humbucking via a push/pull on the bridge.  I have the tone push/pulling a phase switch, which sounds absolutely like downtuned QUEEN in the middle position with the bridge pickup split and the tone dialed back just a tad.

Twang transposed down low to B just has a body all its own, and I wonder why it didn't take off on a larger scale (no pun intended) back when rockabilly & country were in their hayday.

I got my case for my Bari-Tele through GFS also, but be warned, get a BASS Case.  I got a tweed Bass Case and I add a lil foam in the lower cutaway so the body doesn't slide up towards the head slamming the head into the end of the case interior.

I haven't found any other case that would fit without going custom.

I've had mine for almost 3 years now, still working like a champ & I'll be playing it this weekend up near the Lummi Reservation, so I'm stoked about gigging it out again.

 

[rgand]

The seller claims this case will fit the Fender Blacktop baritone.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fender-Subsonic-Baritone-Telecaster-Hardshell-Case-0058025000-G-G-Case-/261714979367?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item3cef6daa27

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

It might fit the Blacktop, but not likely a Warmoth Baritone due to the longer scale length.

 

[rgand]

It might fit the Blacktop, but not likely a Warmoth Baritone due to the longer scale length.

I forgot that the Warmoth conversion is a different scale length. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Mine is the more universal GFS Bass case, 'cause I didn't want to pay for a Fender logo'd Tele-Bass case, but the latter definitely would have worked.

 

[cooltouch]

Okay, I'm back with my promised follow-up. Thanks for the feedback regarding the lack of identifying markings on new Fenders. That didn't always used to be the case.

Okay, so I got the tuners installed and the strings arrived yesterday. As I mentioned earlier, I decided to try the EB Not Even Slinkys for starting out. I also decided to see if I could tune it to a low A and see if it would handle that depth. Well, I'd have to say it's kinda borderline. The sixth and the third strings are on the verge of being flappy, but they're hanging in there.

I find the top three strings to be comfortable for bending with the guitar tuned to A. The 3rd feels just a bit stiffer than the other two and I suspect that if I tuned the guitar up a step to B that the 3rd string would be substantially harder to bend up a whole step, and, of course, vibrato wouldn't be as deep. But as it sits, the A tuning is very doable so I'm just going to leave it as it is for now.

I rough-intonated it yesterday after stringing it up. I need to go back and set it more accurately. Currently it's touchy trying to get the top four strings to sound in tune with each other -- to me a dead giveaway that there are intonation issues.  Something else I'm probably just gonna have to get used to is I've noticed that it's pretty easy changing a string's intonation just by the way I grab it. If I bear down on it, it'll go sharp, so I need to practice on more of an easy-does-it style.

Oh, one more thing this guitar's definitely gonna need is at least one, preferably two, string trees. The 1st string sounds not good open because there isn't enough of a break angle over the nut. In fact the break angle is minimal for the top four strings, so I've pretty much made my mind up to go with a set of two string trees.

Out of curiosity, what have you decided works for you, with respect to string trees?

I was rather anxious when I plugged it in, but I was pleasantly surprised at the sound of the pickups. They are slightly microphonic, but not bad at all and the sound has loads of presence. The neck pickup is incredible, especially when I'm playing up around the 12th fret. Hendrix with a double stack Marshall doesn't have a thing on the tone this baby's putting out. And the bridge pickup has alll that brilliant attack that I've come to expect out of a good Tele.  So it's looking like I won't need to worry about pickups in the short term, after all.  Also, for singe coils, they're reasonably quiet, which is a nice plus.

Here's a pic of the guitar. Nothing special, really, just a bone-stock looking Tele with a long neck:

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Mine has the Gotoh SG38 tuners, so I have a string tree (disc) for the two higher strings, F# & high B.  I have the disc placed just below the tuner for the D string.  Gives me the right tension to pull down over the nut slots.

Other than that, I tried heavier gauged strings at first, but felt like the just didn't fit the longer scale length.  They were easy enough to bend, but when I got strings actually made for longer scale length and not just down tuning, in other words, real baritone strings, the instrument just came alive.

Playing this in the standard B tuning for baritone feels very much like when I play my others in standard A440.  The transition is quite natural from one guitar to the other with exception to wider stretches to compensate for scale length.

I use these on mine.http://www.juststrings.com/elx-12302.html

 

[swarfrat]

I play D'Addario EJ18's which is a phosphor bronze 14-59 set on my acoustic baritone. I tune it to C#. Works well for me.

 

[cooltouch]

Regarding the string tree situation, I googled the term and then clicked on Images. Seems like doubles are most popular (found one tele that had triples) and that the most common placement for them is slightly inboard of the 4th and 5th strings. This would give a good break angle, for sure, so I'll probably go for a similar placement. The break angles for the 5th and 6th strings are minimal but appear to be enough for the strings to sound properly when picked open.

I was curious about the body wood so I went to the Fender Squier website and looked around. This guitar is probably an Affinity series (cheapest Squier Tele), which means its body wood is alder. The next cheapest Squier Tele with the traditional pickup arrangement is the Standard, which has agathis as its body wood. Reading up on agathis, it's a yellowish hardwood coming out of Asia, light, but good enough for building solid body guitars from. Judging by the look of the wood in the neck pocket, I'd say that this guitar is made from alder and not agathis because the wood doesn't look yellowish at all. Just a very light tannish color.

I've heard of solid body guitars being built from alder for years, but I don't know much about its resonant properties.  Apparently my '96 American Standard Stratocaster, whose tone I truly love, has an alder body, so I reckon this Tele is in good company.

Hey Tony,  you write:

Other than that, I tried heavier gauged strings at first, but felt like the just didn't fit the longer scale length.  They were easy enough to bend, but when I got strings actually made for longer scale length and not just down tuning, in other words, real baritone strings, the instrument just came alive.

These are the Elixer Baritone 12's I take it?  What is the diameter of the 6th string?  56 with the Not Even Slinkys is quite resonant and feels not too loose for low A tuning.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

.012 - .068 with a plain 3rd string.

I tell ya, it's the "goldilocks" of sets that I found for this application.

 

[rgand]

I was curious about the body wood so I went to the Fender Squier website and looked around. This guitar is probably an Affinity series (cheapest Squier Tele), which means its body wood is alder. The next cheapest Squier Tele with the traditional pickup arrangement is the Standard, which has agathis as its body wood. Reading up on agathis, it's a yellowish hardwood coming out of Asia, light, but good enough for building solid body guitars from. Judging by the look of the wood in the neck pocket, I'd say that this guitar is made from alder and not agathis because the wood doesn't look yellowish at all. Just a very light tannish color.

My Affinity Squier Strat body ('03 vintage) is agathis. I called Fender to find out and the guy I talked to was helpful and quickly looked it up. At the neck pocket, the wood is a light tan color, smooth grain. With new pickups and electronics, and a new Warmoth roasted maple neck, the guitar came alive. I'm surprised and pleased at how it sounds. Originally I had thought it was just going to be a parts holder until I could round up an ash body. It doesn't have the spank my Tele has, of course, but now I'm not so sure I want to change it. Anyway, you may want to call Fender to find out what you have. 1-800-856-9801 The menu will guide you to the right department.

FWIW, here's what I found on the Gaskell Guitar site about agathis:
AGATHIS. Botanical name: Agathis is called Kauri in New Zealand and Australia. There are 21 species and it only grows in Australia, New Zealand, New Caledonia, Fiji, Vanuatu, Solomon Islands, Philippines, and on the island of Borneo. It's timber has many uses. Some modern guitar manufacturers use the Asian kind for the bodies of their budget priced guitars. Squier Telecasters and Stratocasters are made from Agathis as are many Tokai guitars. It is a good tonewood with similar sound properties to mahogany but has no grain like basswood, hence not suitable for natural finishes.

 

[cooltouch]

Well, it's been a while now, so I thought I'd post my most recent impressions on my new Bari Tele. First of all, the string trees came in yesterday so I installed them. I installed the one for the 1st and 2nd strings just inside the 4th string's tuner (by "inside" I mean closer to the nut) and the second one, for the 3rd and 4th strings, I located it just inside the 5th string's tuner. These locations gave me an adequate break angle for the top four strings and now they all sound much better when being played open.

I also did some more intonation work on all of the strings, and I feel I finally have it close. The G required the most adjustment -- a lot -- which I guess isn't that big of a surprise, it being a rather thick unwound string and all.

Speaking of which, I found that, with this EB Not Even Slinky set, all of the strings had an even amount of sustain except the 3rd string. When I play it on the lower frets it responds fine, but as I move up higher on the fingerboard, sustain decreases, until by the time I'm up at the 12th fret or so, there is very little sustain anymore. It just kinda goes *plonk*. Still sounds fine, just not much sustain anymore.

I suspect this is because the string is an unwound 0.024", which is getting pretty fat for an unwound string. But I fear if I go with a wound one, it will be quite resistant to bends, which I don't want either. So I'm just putting up with it -- it's not all that difficult to do -- for now. I might try a different manufacturer but likely with a similar set of thicknesses, see if I get much different of a result.

Setting the 3rd string's issues aside, however, I must say again how much fun it is playing the Tele as a Baritone instrument. I've left the tuning to A-D-G-C-E-A. It does a decent job with this tuning. The opens aren't really flappy at all. Warmoth adjusted this guitar's neck with enough relief in it so that buzzing isn't a problem. I didn't change the relief on the neck -- I wanted to try things the way they had it set up and, well, I gotta say that I think they know what they're doing because it came out just right. I have the action set to a medium low height and it is very comfortable with this setting.

I'm guessing the body's pickups are whatever come standard on a Affinity-series Telecaster, and I have to say that I have no complaints there, either. The bridge pickup has that brilliant Tele spank that I was so looking forward to and the neck position pickup has a huge amount of presence. It's really quite surprising how such a tiny pickup can sound so big.

I've been kicking around the idea of some mods on this guitar. Probably one of the first is gonna be a mod that Bill Kirchen (of Hot Rod Lincoln fame) does with his Teles, where he switches around the switchplate. Here's a Youtube video where he discusses the mod. Interestingly enough, the first Tele they show in the video is a baritone Tele!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5Rfv0dQttM

So, speaking of mods -- what are some of your favorites?  I know there's all sorts of stuff folks do now with pots that can be pushed and pulled to give various sounds, and this might be doable -- but is it practical with two single coil pickups, I wonder . . .

And since I mentioned Bill Kirchen, I thought I should wind things up with a bit of Hot Rod Lincoln:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsLdufJePz0

 

[bagman67]

Check out Bête Noire - I have her wired with two single coils, one of the RWRP with respect to the other.  I also have a tapped Duncan Quarter Pound in the bridge, with a mini-switch to control it.  I have it on a four-way switch for the following combos:


Neck
Neck + Bridge (series)
Neck + Bridge (parallel)
Bridge


And for each of the four positions that involve the bridge pickup, you get the tapped and untapped settings, yielding seven usable tones.