DavyDave53
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All the Warmoth's neck nuts I've received have been a little on the high side but playable. I not worried about it as they will wear down with use.
Warmoth nut slotting?
- Thread starter rolloman
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Tony Ounsworth
Senior Member
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That's certainly true, but that's no good if you want to take it straight into a studio or play a gig with it. It'll just go out of tune.
sixstringsamurai
Hero Member
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Tony Ounsworth said:
It's kind of silly to take a freshly built guitar out to the studio / gig ect. :icon_scratch:
It still needs time to find it's voice and settle in.......
my first build took a good day and a half to open up and sing.
I was lucky with my second because the wood W sent were superb pieces and it was a screamer out of the gate.
And as for going out of tune, both of mine were Stable right off the bench, maybe I am just lucky that way. :dontknow:
Tony Ounsworth
Senior Member
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Yeah, I know - that's why for me they're not "playable" straight away.
If your nut is high, it'll go out of tune just by fretting it. That's not the same as not being able to tune the guitar.
If your nut is high, it'll go out of tune just by fretting it. That's not the same as not being able to tune the guitar.
Tony Ounsworth
Senior Member
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Here's the nut on mine by the way. It's hard to get a representative picture, but I think you can see that it's visibly high:
Regardless, the guitar tunes up normally to concert pitch. Play the first fret though, and it reads very sharp. That's what I mean by going out of tune in this case, it's not losing its pitch, it's just that the very act of fretting the string sends the note sharp. So whilst I can sit around at home strumming it, it's not a properly useable guitar - yet. I did use it a gig, as I was very keen to try it out, but I ran into problems in the lower reaches of the neck.
That's why I'm taking it to get Plekked. Although who knows when I'll get the time, it's been sitting in my office at work for over a week!
Regardless, the guitar tunes up normally to concert pitch. Play the first fret though, and it reads very sharp. That's what I mean by going out of tune in this case, it's not losing its pitch, it's just that the very act of fretting the string sends the note sharp. So whilst I can sit around at home strumming it, it's not a properly useable guitar - yet. I did use it a gig, as I was very keen to try it out, but I ran into problems in the lower reaches of the neck.
That's why I'm taking it to get Plekked. Although who knows when I'll get the time, it's been sitting in my office at work for over a week!
Yeah, if I can intercept it early enough, I don't think the expense of a Plek is a great idea for several months, at least until the neck has been through some climate changes. I also like to try different strings on guitars for a while, but even if you're set on that, a neck will settle - even Warmoth's "pro" necks need to pull the wood up tight to the trussrod. If you can get by with just a bare minimum nut job - it should be no more than 1/2 hr. of the tech's time - and Plek it in the fall or next winter, I think it'd then have a chance of being real sweet for a long, long time.
(You can use a small drawing triangle or some sort of fret rocker, and some playing time, to see if there is a fret high somewhere, but I usually get by with Warmoth's work in the first round.)
(You can use a small drawing triangle or some sort of fret rocker, and some playing time, to see if there is a fret high somewhere, but I usually get by with Warmoth's work in the first round.)
Tony Ounsworth said:Here's the nut on mine by the way. It's hard to get a representative picture, but I think you can see that it's visibly high:
Regardless, the guitar tunes up normally to concert pitch. Play the first fret though, and it reads very sharp. That's what I mean by going out of tune in this case, it's not losing its pitch, it's just that the very act of fretting the string sends the note sharp. So whilst I can sit around at home strumming it, it's not a properly useable guitar - yet. I did use it a gig, as I was very keen to try it out, but I ran into problems in the lower reaches of the neck.
That's why I'm taking it to get Plekked. Although who knows when I'll get the time, it's been sitting in my office at work for over a week!
I couldn't say that was high without putting a feeler gauge under the string to the first fret while fretting at the third. Although, from the picture it does look higher than how my telecaster neck was shipped. Also, it depends on the gauge of strings you are using. I use 9's which sit right in the nut as shipped.
Tony Ounsworth
Senior Member
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I use 9-46 Hybrids, but I remember that I tried 9-42s on it first because of the high nut issue, and it was still too high. I did check it with a feeler gauge - can't remember the exact measurements but it was high. The biggest visual giveaway to me is how much of the low E string is visible above the nut, but also the fact that the tuner reads the F on the first fret as sharp when the low E is in tune. I know that every guitar inherently has these slight aberrations across the whole neck, but this is needle-off-the-screen-of-my-Polytune sharp.
Thanks for the advice regarding the Plek setup guys. Actually the main reason I was planning to do it is simply that I'd heard great things about it, and I figured that the guitar deserved the best setup I could get. But maybe I will just drop it in and get the nut addressed first.
Thanks for the advice regarding the Plek setup guys. Actually the main reason I was planning to do it is simply that I'd heard great things about it, and I figured that the guitar deserved the best setup I could get. But maybe I will just drop it in and get the nut addressed first.
The low E string looks pretty good to me as far as what I can tell from the picture. Strings should never be any lower into the string slot than 1/2 of the string. Now since the nut slot needs to be deeper in order to eliminate the note at 1st fret from being sharp, then after deepening the slot the top surface of the nut will also have to be filed down to keep 1/2 of the string still showing. If it were me I would not tolerate the sharpness at the first fret and would get that sucker fixed. There is no way Warmoth can fine tune the nut slot depths because of all the factors involved. The nut slot depths are on the conservative side and require tweeking sometimes. Sometimes the buyer gets lucky and the slots are just right. Some don't like in your case. Like I said, I would not just live with it for long. You paid too much for that neck to have to compromise. Please note in no way am I slamming Warmoth for this. They are a wonderful company with quality products. The nut slot depths are impossible for them to perfect unless they were putting together the guitar for you. I'm gonna receive a new neck from them in a few days and have no problem with tweeking the nut if needed. Since starting this thread I have purchased all the tools, (gauged files, pippin file, nut saw, nut shaping files, nut slot polishing string, etc.) in order to do the work. I also have an extra Tusq xl nut available if I mess up. This is not a job everyone can do because of the skill and tools required but I will learn one way or the other. Building guitars is my new hobby and I refuse to let a luthier do anything for me. That's just the way I am. Always have always will. Lol That being said if I was not into the building but just needed or wanted a different neck for a quitar I would recommend a luthier to do the tweeking on your guitar. One last thing. I hope I'm not coming across as a know it all because I am far from it. I am just learning about this stuff and these forums are great for learning. There's so much I need to learn and I'm very appreciative of the help these forums provide. Also I'm very independent. lol Get's me in trouble sometimes. Good luck with that guitar Tony. Hope ya get it fixed soon. Wish ya lived closer I could experiment on yours instead of my neck. Lol Check this out something another member provided me with. Really good article. http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.htmlTony Ounsworth said:
Tony Ounsworth
Senior Member
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Thanks very much Rolloman.
It's hard to tell from the picture, but I'd say the low E sits more than 1/2 out of the slot. It probably only needs taking down a tiny amount, and if I had the tools I'd have a go myself.
I totally understand why Warmoth ship them this way incidentally. You can always remove material but you can't put it back!
It's hard to tell from the picture, but I'd say the low E sits more than 1/2 out of the slot. It probably only needs taking down a tiny amount, and if I had the tools I'd have a go myself.
I totally understand why Warmoth ship them this way incidentally. You can always remove material but you can't put it back!
Cagey
Mythical Status
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In a perfect world, the string should sit roughly half its diameter in the slot. In reality, that's pretty difficult to do, and I'm not so sure it's necessary. The thing you have to watch for is friction, and if the slot is spaced properly for the string, you never have more than half the string's diameter touching anything so it doesn't matter how deep it is. If you balance the contour of the slot with its depth, you're good to go, and if it's somewhat buried then you have less worry about the thing popping out when you get a bit aggressive.
O.K., Magnum Opie's on the prowl. (B-M this or forever hold yer pee....)
There is no reason that the slot can't be the depth of the entire string except for buzzing, and it's just one of those things that gets repeated over 'n' over 'n' over until it "becomes" true. And it is true for shop professional people who are in a hurry, and don't want to hand you back a guitar that buzzes but also want to get it done in 15 minutes. And, since people turn to "the pros" for advice and the “pros” write all the articles, the factoid just can't be killed. And your strings will pop out. :sad1: If you do look carefully at that article, that rounded cone shape coming off the back of the string (towards the headstock) means that the only place the string contacts the nut is at the front of the nut, and the sides of the slot at that point. So if you made the slot that shape, the strings couldn't buzz anyway. :icon_scratch: Even if it was several millimeters past the diameter of the whole string! I actually like my personal nuts to be the same height all across, so the bass string's height is just covered and the high E is quite deep.
“Oh, Stubby's tripping again, everybody KNOWS that blar nar nar....”
Hmmm. Howza 'bout another nutty "thing that get repeated over 'n' over 'n' over until it 'becomes' true?” O.K., another flagrantly insane one: You have to remove the strings every time you remove the neck to adjust the trussrod, file something, anything that has strings in the way, etc. Just use a CAPO, jumpin' jimeny. You put a capo on at the first fret, loosen the strings enough and detach the neck. And the strings don't go sproinging all over the place and you can repeatedly check your progress by re-attaching the neck. And I have written to Premier Guitar every (half-dozen?) time they repeat their “restring” nonsense, SO many times, I gotta figure they realize how much revenue they get from string companies, “Oh! Let us synergize our ad department with our shop tip department!” never mind if the customer is getting screwed.... Or, it's just remotely possible they've installed a poopchute that automatically dumps in the crapper every e-mail from that “stubhead” guy cause he sure is annoying? Nuh-uhhh...
One minor but pertinent tip – new strings of the thicker kind, especially the low “E” on a guitar and ALL bass strings, do NOT come off the nut straight. They still have a bit of a curve to them, so even if your files are in a happy mood and cranking perfectly and all is cream 'n' roses, you need to STOP and let that “E” settle if indeed, it's not. Yet settled, that is. (See CB below too).
But enough salad, to the meat course:
There's good stuff in this thread, particularly CB's post (#16) on page 2
http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=10057.15
Three MORE crucial tools are 1) whatever it takes to let you see very well what you're doing. At 56, I need lots of help there. I have an Optivisor with the 2X lens, a few hand-held magnifiers, a really high powered 35X pen-type thing, a triple lens 5-20X do-dah. The Optivisor and a cheap little 10X jeweler's loupe do the heavy lifting. I DON'T think you need anything expensive, the bigger bucks give you larger field-of-view but a nut slot and a fret end don't need that.
2) it is extremely useful to be able to lift fully-tuned stings up out of their nut slots when you're zeroing in at the end.
This is two thick plastic pieces - credit card thick, there's a lot of stuff comes vacuum-packed with the clear stuff. You slide the two pieces of plastic in between the strings and the fretboard, slide them up to the nut and then slide your stick up in between the two pieces of plastic - the clear plastic is on top of the stick in the second picture. Waola! Lifted strings...
3) And feeler gauges, not just for measuring but you can re-combine them to make a solid, un-screw-uppable STOP for your nut files. Foolproof!* Do not buy feeler gauges from Stew-Mac! They sell an 11-blade set for $25, and if you go to the automotive supply they sell you a 25-blade set... for $11! And, you will need all those in betweeners, for, THIS (long... hairy...):
http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=15949.msg233991#msg233991
That's long and involved, but once you understand it, that same sort of approach – building in a physical STOP for your tools so you can't cut deeper, drill deeper – can go way deep, way wide, way long.
This is a fine attitude. The main reason I always recommend buying Dan Erlewine's “Guitar Player Repair Guide” is that by going through it, you can see exactly what you already know that can be applied to a guitar process, and what you don't know. There are all sorts of different “transfer credits” that can apply – any woodworking, any jewelry background, even work as a cook or any kind of factory work gives you some ability to lay out an order and system of working. Too much self-confidence is a problem.... :laughing7: Personally I think working with small stuff helps the most. When your brain and your magnification tools are working together so you can see differences of 0.002”, you're already at 2nd base IMO. One of the finest of the new school of guitar inlaying has a day job – as an honest-to-jeebers brain surgeon. :toothy12:
Then again, you could always just play slide instead!
(pleez no worry, it looked like I was running low so I made 6 or 8 more... whew!) :icon_thumright:
Firstly, I agree with Cagey here. The reason for that "half the height" bit is that the string can't vibrate against the side of the nut slots - if there aren't any. :icon_biggrin: But if you use a whammy, play hard and especially, bend strings anywhere below the 7th fret, your strings will pop out. I expect that this is another leftover from violin setups, acoustic setup.... what it is, is a foolproof* way to eliminate buzzing, because it's a fast way to get potentially buzz-inducing material out of the way - a hangover from "professional" shop procedures where time is money, and if you do things the pokey way you're working for peanuts. Everything about that article cited above - http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.html - is great except the halfsies thing.
There is no reason that the slot can't be the depth of the entire string except for buzzing, and it's just one of those things that gets repeated over 'n' over 'n' over until it "becomes" true. And it is true for shop professional people who are in a hurry, and don't want to hand you back a guitar that buzzes but also want to get it done in 15 minutes. And, since people turn to "the pros" for advice and the “pros” write all the articles, the factoid just can't be killed. And your strings will pop out. :sad1: If you do look carefully at that article, that rounded cone shape coming off the back of the string (towards the headstock) means that the only place the string contacts the nut is at the front of the nut, and the sides of the slot at that point. So if you made the slot that shape, the strings couldn't buzz anyway. :icon_scratch: Even if it was several millimeters past the diameter of the whole string! I actually like my personal nuts to be the same height all across, so the bass string's height is just covered and the high E is quite deep.
“Oh, Stubby's tripping again, everybody KNOWS that blar nar nar....”
Hmmm. Howza 'bout another nutty "thing that get repeated over 'n' over 'n' over until it 'becomes' true?” O.K., another flagrantly insane one: You have to remove the strings every time you remove the neck to adjust the trussrod, file something, anything that has strings in the way, etc. Just use a CAPO, jumpin' jimeny. You put a capo on at the first fret, loosen the strings enough and detach the neck. And the strings don't go sproinging all over the place and you can repeatedly check your progress by re-attaching the neck. And I have written to Premier Guitar every (half-dozen?) time they repeat their “restring” nonsense, SO many times, I gotta figure they realize how much revenue they get from string companies, “Oh! Let us synergize our ad department with our shop tip department!” never mind if the customer is getting screwed.... Or, it's just remotely possible they've installed a poopchute that automatically dumps in the crapper every e-mail from that “stubhead” guy cause he sure is annoying? Nuh-uhhh...
One minor but pertinent tip – new strings of the thicker kind, especially the low “E” on a guitar and ALL bass strings, do NOT come off the nut straight. They still have a bit of a curve to them, so even if your files are in a happy mood and cranking perfectly and all is cream 'n' roses, you need to STOP and let that “E” settle if indeed, it's not. Yet settled, that is. (See CB below too).
But enough salad, to the meat course:
There's good stuff in this thread, particularly CB's post (#16) on page 2
http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=10057.15
Tusq is a delrin derivative, and it's supposed to let metal slide over it – it's bearing material. What this means for filing it is that if you press a little bit, the file slides right over it. And if you press just a bit harder, all of a sudden the file cuts very, very well. You need to know where that point is, just how your chosen tools interact with your chosen material. I find that abrasives may work better on some things (like delrin), I use wet/dry gray sandpaper, and the diamond-coated tools work the same way.
Three MORE crucial tools are 1) whatever it takes to let you see very well what you're doing. At 56, I need lots of help there. I have an Optivisor with the 2X lens, a few hand-held magnifiers, a really high powered 35X pen-type thing, a triple lens 5-20X do-dah. The Optivisor and a cheap little 10X jeweler's loupe do the heavy lifting. I DON'T think you need anything expensive, the bigger bucks give you larger field-of-view but a nut slot and a fret end don't need that.
2) it is extremely useful to be able to lift fully-tuned stings up out of their nut slots when you're zeroing in at the end.
This is two thick plastic pieces - credit card thick, there's a lot of stuff comes vacuum-packed with the clear stuff. You slide the two pieces of plastic in between the strings and the fretboard, slide them up to the nut and then slide your stick up in between the two pieces of plastic - the clear plastic is on top of the stick in the second picture. Waola! Lifted strings...
3) And feeler gauges, not just for measuring but you can re-combine them to make a solid, un-screw-uppable STOP for your nut files. Foolproof!* Do not buy feeler gauges from Stew-Mac! They sell an 11-blade set for $25, and if you go to the automotive supply they sell you a 25-blade set... for $11! And, you will need all those in betweeners, for, THIS (long... hairy...):
http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=15949.msg233991#msg233991
That's long and involved, but once you understand it, that same sort of approach – building in a physical STOP for your tools so you can't cut deeper, drill deeper – can go way deep, way wide, way long.
This is a fine attitude. The main reason I always recommend buying Dan Erlewine's “Guitar Player Repair Guide” is that by going through it, you can see exactly what you already know that can be applied to a guitar process, and what you don't know. There are all sorts of different “transfer credits” that can apply – any woodworking, any jewelry background, even work as a cook or any kind of factory work gives you some ability to lay out an order and system of working. Too much self-confidence is a problem.... :laughing7: Personally I think working with small stuff helps the most. When your brain and your magnification tools are working together so you can see differences of 0.002”, you're already at 2nd base IMO. One of the finest of the new school of guitar inlaying has a day job – as an honest-to-jeebers brain surgeon. :toothy12:
Then again, you could always just play slide instead!
(pleez no worry, it looked like I was running low so I made 6 or 8 more... whew!) :icon_thumright:
Thanks, StubHead, and Cagey. Great advice. I do see now what you are saying about the string depth being deeper than 1/2 the string and agree. The string lifting idea is great along with the feeler guages to prevent overcutting. I will give the sandpaper a try on the Tusq XL before putting any files to it. By the way I love your pick string tree. Lol
