Warmoth not an innovation leader anymore?

[cooler23]

Hello all

It has been a while since my last post here. I have a Warmoth strat for few years now. I'm very happy. I bought it because of several reasons. Fun factor, emotion side of making your own guitar, quality and at that time - features nearly none of the usual big maker was offering - stainless steel frets, compound radius, choice of the neck shape...all of the great stuff that I'm sure we all love on our Warmoth's guitars. But as I matured a little as a player I would also changed a few things, I would buy a different guitar today. I would build even more vintage Warmoth but with even more of modern stuff. And that is where I now have a problem with Warmoth. They make great parts from awesome materials and their craftsmenship is epic. But the main reason I decided for Warmoth several years ago was their innovation. That it is real "poor-men's" custom shop with nearly unlimited possibilities with all the benefits of the BYO guitars. But now I want more and Warmoth is not willing to offer it. You see.. I want a different compound radius 7-1/4" to 12", I want microwave heavy roasted alder body and maple neck roasted the same way but with carbon rods, I want heavy rolled fretboard sides, I want Evertune bridge rout, I want the headstock to be the shape exactly like on 60's strats, not 96% like it etc. And yes, I asked Warmoth directly about this and they refused to do it (yep, they don't even do the Evertune bridge rout anymore). I know that their choices are huge even without these options so don't get me wrong - I love Warmoth. I just wish they'd keep up with the new trends or be even in front of the rest as they used to be. And please don't let this thread turn out to be a discussion about what feature is worth doing and having and which one is nonsense. Some swear by the stainless steel frets, others hate it. But I think it is completely legitimate to want this feature and as we know Warmoth offers both variants to make both groups happy. But I think there is a certain group of people (I would call them vintage modernist) who would love to have good 'ol strat but with all modern features I mentioned above and more. But for now Warmoth does not seem to be willing to fulfill our wishes. And that's a shame. Let me know what do you think.

Have a nice day you all

 

[fretless]

They have more options then ever but can't do everything ,or won't if they know it will cost too high on either their side or yours . I don't hold this against them at all though .  This leaves room for luthiers who do build one-off custom instruments though you still may have to accept their headstock like Tyler or Suhr you may be able to pick things that are uncommon .

 

[Jumble Jumble]

You are looking for a full custom builder. Warmoth is a replacement parts manufacturer with some fancy options.

 

[Cederick]

Yeah I hope they re-introduce the Evertune bridge option some time in the future once demand gets higher :hello2:

 

[cooler23]

Yes, I know that they are replacement parts company. But I always had a feeling that they like to do standard things little better design and construction-wise. I can imagine that to do compound fretboard radius is a little more complicated than to do straight radius. The same for dressing the ss frets. All of these options can raise the question weather they are worth or weather these should be done by small custom luthiers. I mean why should Warmoth offer them? Why to do a neck from something other than maple? I always thought that Warmoth tried hard to offer more. And that they'll never stop pushing the bar higher and higher. Because I think that it is this very principle which made them famous and successful.

I see stainless steel frets as a step up from the regular ones, the chambering of the body (also not very easy to do and certainly not cheap) as a step up from the normal solid body, compound radius as a step up from the straight one and now I see bridges like 2-Tek or Evertune as a step up from the standard type of bridges, I now see roasting of the woods and carbon reinforcement of the neck as a step up. I wonder why won't Warmoth see it as a step up with these. Why going with ss frets or chambering was a step up for them, but the roasting and other things I mentioned is not.

Last thing I want to say is that I don't want the producer of things be the one who decides for me what is and what isn't too expensive for me. I'm the one who pays, I'm the one who decides. Warmoth had once for some time in their stock brazilian rosewood necks that were many times more expensive than what they normally do. But I can imagine that somebody bought them and was very happy with them.

In the end I would have to go to Suhr or Anderson and let it be made to all my specs I wish it to be. But I would love to give my money to Warmoth instead and build it myself as I'm their happy customer and I love the process. Pitty

 

[Day-mun]

...Last thing I want to say is that I don't want the producer of things be the one who decides for me what is and what isn't too expensive for me. I'm the one who pays, I'm the one who decides. Warmoth had once for some time in their stock brazilian rosewood necks that were many times more expensive than what they normally do. But I can imagine that somebody bought them and was very happy with them.

In the end I would have to go to Suhr or Anderson and let it be made to all my specs I wish it to be. But I would love to give my money to Warmoth instead and build it myself as I'm their happy customer and I love the process. Pitty

But you are only one. There's gotta be many, many more than one that want the same, or the start-up costs and equipment won't be worth it.

I'd bet W would love to give it to ya your way, but the rest of us are glad that they are smart enough not to go outa buisness trying to do it.

 

[stratamania]

In terms of innovation, first I would say that has become a somewhat overused phrase especially in the world of IT. I have even seen innovation teams and boards set up that mostly came out with ideas that would never fly, you know stuff like wireless power.

Now in the guitar world, things tend of late to be more traditionalist or possibly even regressive. E.g. In the 80s double locking trems were an innovation and an improvement whereas now there is an industry based on six screws and an old design and Custom shops selling reissues of things which were even less consistent when released.

So  anyway back to Warmoth,  I suppose as said its a replacement manufacturer mainly with various options some of which were innovative at the time introduced.  So if I was running Warmoth, which I am not and am not affiliated with them I would have to ask, if we introduce this as an option or innovation how many are we likely to sell and will we break even or be profitable?

I am glad of the choices we do have, happy to see more though.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

ideas that would never fly, you know stuff like wireless power.

Don't get too comfy on that

 

[Cagey]

Another thing to consider is diminishing returns. A general rule of thumb is you can do 80% of a job in 20% of the total time it takes to get it right. The final 20% will take the remaining 80% of the time. Time is money, so you have to draw the line somewhere.

In the case of Warmoth, they don't know what strings a customer is going to use, so they cut their nuts shallow/narrow so you can finish the job to your spec. Same with the frets. They don't know how you want them dressed, or even if you want them dressed at all. Many players don't care. They also don't know if you're going to play slide, folk, or thrash. So, they install the frets as best as possible, bevel the edges, and leave it to the user to get that last % of work done to suit their needs.

 

[Cederick]

But you are only one. There's gotta be many, many more than one that want the same, or the start-up costs and equipment won't be worth it.

But, aren't they just getting like, a CAD-code for their computer and then putting it the CNC machine?

A friend of mine is making a guitar by simply downloading a few CAD files and using the CNC machine at his work. It should be no more work for Warmoth to accomplish the same thing really, with Evertune routs and the likes of that.

Here's the guitar he making with his workplaces CNC machine, even tho in unfinished state in this picture but I found nothing better at the moment... And this guy has ZERO skill in guitar making whatsoever. He didn't even know what a freaking truss rod was before doing this  :toothy12: I had to help him out with every single detail, but it seems to turn out pretty well.

 

[Cagey]

But, aren't they just getting like, a CAD-code for their computer and then putting it the CNC machine?

Yup. And landing on the moon is just a matter of shooting a rocket carrying a lander at where you expect the moon to be in a few days, then decelerating down to the surface so you live through it. That, and about a bazillion details is all you need  :laughing7:

 

[swarfrat]

Call me cynic, but I keep waiting for a name to fall out of this as someone who can solve the world's problems. 3... 2... 1... aw come on

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

It also involves several prototypes in order to fine tune spec on the final program.
It's been right around 5 years since I last worked at Warmoth, and I seem to recall when the Gecko bridges that were being supplied no longer were available, and then another vendor was found, but some modifications had to be done on the body design to accommodate it.  I remember several prototypes being produced, assembled, deassembled, reassembled on each successive prototype until the final nod came.  There's a spit load of labor (Cost$$$) associated with doing that, and for a small business of 50 people or less with a full production pace, you can only imagine the challenge associated with it.

Just because a CNC machine is involved, doesn't mean that everything is perfect right out of the chute.  There's still a great deal more detail involved, and with each detail comes a cost.

 

[cooler23]

...Last thing I want to say is that I don't want the producer of things be the one who decides for me what is and what isn't too expensive for me. I'm the one who pays, I'm the one who decides. Warmoth had once for some time in their stock brazilian rosewood necks that were many times more expensive than what they normally do. But I can imagine that somebody bought them and was very happy with them.

In the end I would have to go to Suhr or Anderson and let it be made to all my specs I wish it to be. But I would love to give my money to Warmoth instead and build it myself as I'm their happy customer and I love the process. Pitty

But you are only one. There's gotta be many, many more than one that want the same, or the start-up costs and equipment won't be worth it.

I'd bet W would love to give it to ya your way, but the rest of us are glad that they are smart enough not to go outa buisness trying do it.

Well, I get what you say. But if we take a look in the guitar business - what if people from Fender told themselves this in the early 80's? They would have been glad that Fender was producing some guitars so why change something that is working...a bit - not great but it was working at that time. But someone had a strange (at that time) idea to do something revolutionary - it was called Fender Custom Shop. I bet that at that time Fender didn't know or even expected it to be such hit and great business opportunity. I guess sometimes companies have to take some kind of risk to get better off. I think that is the point of whole business thing - entrepreneurship. History is full of companies that played it safe and are now long gone. As it is of course full of some that were risking too much or too early when the market was not ready yet. Take the iPhone for instance - many love it, many hate it. But I think all will agree that it was a risk for Apple to introduce such thing at first. No one knew how things would turn out. People before you could easily say - well we have enough standard mass-produced guitars to choose from so why take the risk and start some "stupid" and "risky" business with replacement parts guitars? Turned out many people - including you and me - liked this idea.

Also I think that my wishes are not that crazy - I mean baked wood? Suhr, Anderson, Music Man and others can source it - so I can imagine that for a fee (that a customer will pay in case of their interest) it won't be such a task to obtain it. Different compound radiuses? If they can do 10"-16" would it be really that hard to offer another one? The labour time woud be roughly the same. Evertune bridge route? Is a series of CNC router steps for the cavity Evertune already provides for free on their website - nothing why would Warmoth go bankrupt. The carbon rods for the neck they already put in their bass necks... I'm not asking for the body made of rhodium and fret dressing using lasers  :icon_scratch:

Lastly - of course when a company comes up with something new it is up to them to not only produce it for the 20% of people hungry for new things and innovations (as I am) but also the persuade the rest of the 80% people by using common sense arguments, research evidence and marketing. BMW and Audi are now releasing models with laser headlamps. Do we need it? Certainly not. Will milions of people buy these very first models? Certainly not. But it is good for safety. Will nearly all cars use it in 10-15 years? I would bet yes... Do we need LED light instead of regular light bulb? No. Can we live with candles instead of light bulbs? Yes, our forefathers lived that way for centuries. Is it good to have classic looking car with ABS and airbags or an traditionaly looking house but with LED lights inside to save energy and no need to change them at all? And walls made by clever modern technologies so we can be warm in winter and cool in summer? But for these to happen companies have to take risk and introduce something, that looks very like an old light bulb, but has none of its drawbacks (except the price at first). Fist iPhone was ridiculously expensive to its rivals at that time and could do nearly none of the things current cheapo smarphones can do easy peasy. I like this idea...of "futuretro".. where we take the good things from both old and new to overcome the bad or unwanted things. And those doesn't have to be relative bad things that are good for the next guy. I mean the bad things that all of us don't want. None of us want the guitar to be shrinking or expanding depending on the humidity and temperature of the air. None of us wants the guitar going out of tune. None of us wants to change frets at all once they are perfectly set up. None of us wants the strings to be choked out when bending. Etc.

 

[cooler23]

It also involves several prototypes in order to fine tune spec on the final program.
It's been right around 5 years since I last worked at Warmoth, and I seem to recall when the Gecko bridges that were being supplied no longer were available, and then another vendor was found, but some modifications had to be done on the body design to accommodate it.  I remember several prototypes being produced, assembled, deassembled, reassembled on each successive prototype until the final nod came.  There's a spit load of labor (Cost$$$) associated with doing that, and for a small business of 50 people or less with a full production pace, you can only imagine the challenge associated with it.

Just because a CNC machine is involved, doesn't mean that everything is perfect right out of the chute.  There's still a great deal more detail involved, and with each detail comes a cost.

Yes. And so does it mean that they should stop trying? Mercedes invests around 1 milion € into R&D a DAY. And I'm sure that they didn't become that rich by not doing this (maybe not at such high scale money-wise) before and that they were standing still and somehow they suddenly come up with great, well built and handling and safe cars everybody wants to buy. I think that is the name of the game. Unfortunately. If you don't want to do the testing, and testing again and then retest it...one day there will be some other company or bloke who will do it instead of you. I don't want Warmoth to be producing space age guitars using sci-fi techniques. All I was trying to say was that they were the innovators few years ago. And now it seems to me like they trying to avoid the hassle (of being an innovating company)...

 

[Cagey]

As unusual as some of Warmoth's offerings are, they're still a production shop. Moving off their business model doesn't seem to be something they're interested in doing, any more than Fender is interested in offering Pau Ferro necks, or Gibson is interested in anything less than financial rape. Warmoth has licensing agreements that allow them to make many of the things they do that preclude them building instruments, which it seems is what you're asking for.

It sounds like you want a custom shop, or a personal luthier. They're out there, in surprising numbers. The only trick is placing faith, writing spec, agreeing on a price and knowing how to use PayPal.

 

[Day-mun]

It has been said before, but I'll say it again: the problem with comparing guitar parts to these things is that they are not these things.

Cars are more or less a commodity that is required for a large section of society. Same with computers and everything else that has been mentioned so far. -But a very small section of society plays guitar, -which is totally a luxury item; in spite of how you may feel if you don't get to play one for a while, one doesn't need it to survive in our society/environment. Out of those who play, a sliver of them care to build their own, and out of those how many care for roasted necks or whatever? Yet this fraction of a percent that want their wood cooked are getting P.O.'d cuz W won't invest in the kiln or whatever to make it for 'em... -They (W) can't 'cuz it just isn't good business.

Look through the suggestion box; there are tons of cool concepts and ideas in there that just won't get produced... because the couple of folks who want it aren't enough of a client base to support it. Do I want an all-in-one pickguard for a Jazz bass that negates the need for the control plate? Sure. Am I the only one who would buy one? maybe not, but there aren't enough others to make it worth the while. -Oh well.

 

[stratamania]

ideas that would never fly, you know stuff like wireless power.

Don't get too comfy on that

Well of course never say never, but for now I don't plan on having folks test it out

 

[Wolfie351]

Basically, OP doesn't like the fact that Warmoth only has a couple dedicated CAD designers and would prefer they hired and trained 50 of them to bang out each and every neck and body option available...then, of course, fire them.  Who cares if they moved to take the job, who cares if they have families, who cares how much higher your unemployment taxes go up.

And, Warmoth is not the manufacturing equivalent to Mercedes and Audi.  Warmoth would be more like Bosch.  And, I guarantee you, Bosch will NOT be making laser headlamps for my Ford or Toyota.

 

[Cagey]

Bosch might be a poor analogy with a $335B market cap. Since it's a privately held concern I have no way of knowing, but I suspect Warmoth might be a $10M company. Probably less. Hell, Fender's market cap is only $369M, so they're roughly a thousand times smaller than Bosch. How much smaller than Fender is Warmoth?