Warmoth not an innovation leader anymore?

[stratamania]

This thread is rather hard to believe.

Warmoth has recently released a batch of new body shapes and headstocks. This was in reaction to some negative BS, but such things spur innovation.

Proactively, the web-site continues to improve and new paint options like metallic bursts offered. Hopefully the chameleon metallics become a selectable future option...definitely not a crew that's coasting along, afraid of new things.

That's a great point there have been some great new shapes and so on lately, but the OP seems to be looking for graphite Rods, different radius etc.

The new shapes and so on lately surely fall under the day to day gradual innovation he also refers to in addition to game changing stuff. But that's really improvement.

Innovation is not invention or improvement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation

 

[cooler23]

This thread is rather hard to believe.

Warmoth has recently released a batch of new body shapes and headstocks. This was in reaction to some negative BS, but such things spur innovation.

Proactively, the web-site continues to improve and new paint options like metallic bursts offered. Hopefully the chameleon metallics become a selectable future option...definitely not a crew that's coasting along, afraid of new things.

Well,

please, read it trough once more please. I wrote many times that I love my Warmoth strat and I appreciate very much what they've done and are doing now. I also mentioned the new body shapes as well and I never wrote it is something wrong or not good.

 

[swarfrat]

such things spur innovation

Indeed. They may not have been the first, but someone finally fixed the SG!!!!

 

[The Hun]

My point is that the specific options cited by the OP are unavailable due to conscious business decisions, not a lack of innovation.

I do consider the new body shapes innovative: they were required to be nostalgic while being different enough so as not considered copied. That's a hard, fine line to walk.

I also believe there are more wood laminates available for the carved top dual laminate option. While I would prefer a single, thick piece of wood with natural masked binding, Warmoth has obviously done some work to account for highly figured wood becoming rarer in thicker slabs. I'd love to see every one of those pictured exotic veneers available to be wrapped onto a carved top body! I hope W continues to work on this innovation.

Not trying to troll, I just see multiple examples of W pushing forward. Just not on the desired options listed here.

 

[cooler23]

Mentioning Ruokangas, I actually met and talked with Juha, the other day in Cologne. That was for me as a guitar player and someone who takes an interest in guitar construction a great experience. I also got to play some great guitars... Juha, is a great person to talk to by the way if you have an opportunity to meet him. We even discussed stainless steel frets and polishing them.

Now Ruokangas, is a small team of about 4 - 5 people, and Finland did start using thermally treated woods well before anyone else, and they were involved in a study of it for tonewoods. It was one of the subjects we touched on along with head stock strengthening and various topics. They build around 120 guitars a year, and so are a different type of guitar company to Warmoth and perhaps can offer options outside of a standard offering at a price.

This is where you have to look at differences between different manufacturers in different or similar industries, what applies to one doesn't alway apply to another. Vive la difference.

But there are some similarities with Ruokangas and Warmoth, they both have innovative web sites, with building and quotation tools although they are slightly different of course. They both offer stainless steel or nickel frets.

I was also at the MusikMesse, and I think in addition to some new products and innovations I saw a lot of variations on a theme and some stands with the tried and true...

The world does need innovation at times, but at times we also need the familiar and the dependable. Plus ca change, plus ce le meme chose, the more that things change the more  they stay the same.

I just looked at  the microsoft release event of the Surface Pro 3 and I think it's great. I may even get one... So I am not against innovation as such when it's needed.

I still say innovation is a bit of an overused buzz word.

Finally Unicorns do exist

Thanks for great points. I would love to meet Juha as well. The more I'm doing reasearch about their guitars the more I'm interested in them and in meeting the man behind them. Must have been geat experience talking to man like this.

Yes, innovation is a buzzword. Tell me about it I actually wrote a thesis about innovation, so I kind of have ambivalent relationship with this word. I hate it but I'm now full of it as well. I found out how many people and companies have different views about what it really is.

Completely agree with the statement: "The world does need innovation at times, but at times we also need the familiar and the dependable."

I love old strat. I would not change a thing in terms of looks. It is like great italian supercar from the 60's or 70's. Wallpaper stuff. But as the saying goes: never meet your heroes. I once watched Top Gear and Mr. May drove his childhood dream - Lamborghini Countach. And it was... hell. So I imagine original strat from 50's can be a huge pain in the a*s. I mean there would be extreme wow factor when playing one for the first time, then amazingly long honeymoon, but then if you put off the pink glasses you would see some problems...exactly the ones Warmoth and other companies addressed. Or maybe not. I never played one. That is only my guess and the stuff I know from reading honest reviews of the ones who were lucky enough to own one.

So that is why I love the idea of Warmoth making the classic parts for classic Strat - but without any drawbacks. And now when all the "bad" stuff was addressed - I maybe want them to improve what is already good. You know - like imagine you can have new stradivarius violin - made today. I' sure it would be good or even great instrument. But how to make it sound like it was played for 300 years? All the resins, the molecules, fibres etc. in perfect harmony with the instrument. But how not to wait 300years or pay milions and milions of dollars at the same time - how to get closest possible to this state of instrument but in its new form. Can you imagine sound of the greatest sounding strats and better but made out of relatively cheap (compared to the original) parts from Warmoth? Which process would lead to this?

I love the idea of Kaizen - small even laughable improving steps but done continuously and if done in many areas at once for certain amount of time they can sooner or later result in not that laughable difference. Imagine that when treating woods and designing for example internal chambering of a guitar body - this can result in huge difference as I'm sure Juha from Ruokangas guitars confirmed.

We've done a LEAN processes this year in our company where I work. Maybe something normal in your country. But for me it was something new and astonishing. I was amazed by the sheer amount of little (or even big) things that could be changed and improved once you look with right eyes at right places.

It's great that Warmoth has done new shapes of bodies and is improving the color palette and website user experience etc. I just wish that they were more like: "yes sir, we will install your moose shinbone nut if that's what you want - but please add another 80$ for that and we would have to ask you to provide the material for it" than "no sir, we don't do this, we certainly don't do that and we never will do this because... add reasons here".

But I will have to accept the fact that I've maybe dreamed Warmoth to be a little different company than it really is.

 

[cooler23]

I do consider the new body shapes innovative: they were required to be nostalgic while being different enough so as not considered copied. That's a hard, fine line to walk.

True. I never wrote anything against this statement. Designing great looking cars for example is very noble thing.

But the discussion was rather how to make the engine rev more and how to squeeze even more HP out of it and how to make it even more gripier in the corners.

But I hope that nobody here thinks that car company should only be designing the looks of the cars. Or only the engines (technological side of things) and not be doing the looks.  It should be done on both fronts. All fronts.

Not only great looking guitars but also even more resonating, lively, sustaining...temperature & humidity stable...whatever it may be. And not ever to stop trying to improve any of it.

 

[stratamania]

@cooler23

The Unicorn guitar by the way is solid not chambered or weight relieved but is light and resonant due to the woods it is made from. The main construction is Spanish Cedar, which funnily isn't from Spain or a member of the Cedar family.

There is a fine line with aging woods via various treatments. Over treating perhaps would be not good. Yes you want an instrument that is great today but you also want it to last. Perhaps it may be like getting a tan, you lie in the sun but you don't overdo it as it can lead to health issues for the skin.

Sometimes like wine and fine people things mature with age.

We live in a society that has become increasingly technological and it has brought huge benefits. E.g. Not everyone can afford a Ruokangas, and CNC techniques which Ruokangas doesn't use mean most people can enjoy a decent instrument.  You can almost bet that if Ruokangas was the size of Fender, offering moose bone nuts and Arctic Birch would be a far far more difficult thing to do. You can get a Warmoth and put a moose bone nut in if you can find one of course.

On the flip side those technological changes have not always helped, as there are expectations placed on people and so on that are unrealistic. Everyone on twitter means you never get to talk with anyone on a bus for example.

Old Strats some were good and a lot not so good. When I bought my first Strat in 1978 I insisted on a new one with the large headstock, bullet truss rod and natural ash body. After all I didn't want the second hand sixties thing they had with worn paint.  Times change.  Guitars are more consistent today and not all vintage stuff was that accurate.

Now I think there are parts of this thread that have contributed to a reasonable discussion and some not so much. As a suggestion if the thread had a title such as "Guitar Industry Innovations" and started with positive statements of what has been and is offered, and what else could we expect for the future it may have been received more positively.

 

[Re-Pete]

Hello all

It has been a while since my last post here. I have a Warmoth strat for few years now. I'm very happy. I bought it because of several reasons. Fun factor, emotion side of making your own guitar, quality and at that time - features nearly none of the usual big maker was offering - stainless steel frets, compound radius, choice of the neck shape...all of the great stuff that I'm sure we all love on our Warmoth's guitars. But as I matured a little as a player I would also changed a few things, I would buy a different guitar today. I would build even more vintage Warmoth but with even more of modern stuff. And that is where I now have a problem with Warmoth. They make great parts from awesome materials and their craftsmenship is epic. But the main reason I decided for Warmoth several years ago was their innovation. That it is real "poor-men's" custom shop with nearly unlimited possibilities with all the benefits of the BYO guitars. But now I want more and Warmoth is not willing to offer it. You see.. I want a different compound radius 7-1/4" to 12", I want microwave heavy roasted alder body and maple neck roasted the same way but with carbon rods, I want heavy rolled fretboard sides, I want Evertune bridge rout, I want the headstock to be the shape exactly like on 60's strats, not 96% like it etc. And yes, I asked Warmoth directly about this and they refused to do it (yep, they don't even do the Evertune bridge rout anymore). I know that their choices are huge even without these options so don't get me wrong - I love Warmoth. I just wish they'd keep up with the new trends or be even in front of the rest as they used to be. And please don't let this thread turn out to be a discussion about what feature is worth doing and having and which one is nonsense. Some swear by the stainless steel frets, others hate it. But I think it is completely legitimate to want this feature and as we know Warmoth offers both variants to make both groups happy. But I think there is a certain group of people (I would call them vintage modernist) who would love to have good 'ol strat but with all modern features I mentioned above and more. But for now Warmoth does not seem to be willing to fulfill our wishes. And that's a shame. Let me know what do you think.

Have a nice day you all

Warmoth do what they know will work and some small time custom work in which you pay handsomely. And, as you found, there's stuff they won't do.

From the top....
1) Different compound radius fretboard. Warmoth just about pioneered the broader compound radius and why should they change the specs? I'd imagine to do that would require a "stop the machine" type situation and a re-programming. And they may have imperial data from earlier prototyping that says a tighter 7.25" radius as the starting point of the compound radius may be too distorting along the neck and feel funny?
2) Microwave roasting of wood. Larger manufacturers of whole guitars are doing this. Let them test bed the longevity of their guitars, under warranty & beyond. I'm not sure where this idea came from, but blasting an organic material with microwaves seems quite unsettling to the molecular structure of the material. Does it maintain it's structural integrity? And who knows, 'Ernie so&so' may have trademarked the process and sue them (again) if Warmoth start doing it? Also sounds like such a process may call for some capital expenditure on new equipment too..
3) Headstock shape. I think that is licensed from Fender, not something they - as licensees - can vary at will.
4) Evertune rout. To me, I see that Warmoth have at least tried to introduce this routing. But I do recall reading (here?) about customers having to shave bits of the routing to get their Evertune bridges to fit. Maybe Warmoth got the version that started out and then as the Evertune evolved it may have changed shape slightly? Maybe after two returns from customers saying: "It won't fit" they put a hold on the bridge routing til the design settles down?
5) As for who you call "Vintage modernists", that's quite possibly a decent description of me and few others here maybe. I started out playing in the early 1970s and a lot of modernisation had not occurred. In fact, companies like DiMarzio & Seymour Duncan were only really starting to make their name back then. You either bought stock from the retailer, optioned it up - if there were options and could afford them!, or took your overly chubby neck to someone you hoped knew what to do and had them shave the neck to order (again IF you had the money). So we've spanned the whole modernisation of the electric guitar.
We've played 1960s guitars, saw the decline in quality control through the 1970s, saw the 'vintage collectible' market start up, saw the after market parts market happen.
Like EVH we wanted the guitar to be better and different. We tinkered! Our cupboards at home are stocked with empty guitar bodies and boxes of pickups and electronics of past projects that just did not make the grade. We've read every issue of Guitar Player, from 1971 -1989......
Our dream is the ultimate playing guitar that will make us play at least 10% better for our now creaking hands...But with a nod to nostalgia, we would like all the gizmos and modernisation to be discrete and stealthy. To anyone just passing a glaze over the guitar it looks just like the millions of other Strats out there....

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I can tell you firsthand that the compound radius machine is a fixed jig machine, outfitted to a belt sander.  It is not adjustable.  Warmoth's fingerboards are not radiused via CNC.  The neck mounts in a jig with the fingerboard exposed to the sanding belt, then the swing arm is swung back & forth sideways across the belt sanding with the grain of the fingerboard.  It was built in house many years ago, and there isn't even room in the neck sanding room to fit another machine.  The machine is used so much that the down time of taking it out to replace it with a newly designed machine would have a seriously detrimental effect on production.

"Other" versions look like http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G0574-Radiusing-Sander/dp/B0002U8EXI/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_4/186-0477733-1498041?ie=UTF8&refRID=0NNZVZ0GGR5K5WTJNNZK

 

[Cagey]

I would say that for $895 I'm sure Warmoth could spring for a variable radius surface sander, but there's more to it than that. For one thing, that unit may not stand up to the constant abuse a production shop may subject it to. Also, you have to bend the frets to suit fairly closely, lest you risk having them rise out of the slots. I can tell you from personal experience fretting compound radius necks that that's time-consuming. If you have to custom-fit frets to every 'board that comes down the line, I can see where that could get to be a pain in the shorts. Time=pain=money. Best to let the unusual requests go to the custom shops.

 

[greywolf]

There comes a point when one has to go to full custom , I did years ago and it has been a wonderful adventure

 

[Re-Pete]

There comes a point when one has to go to full custom , I did years ago and it has been a wonderful adventure

I did too a few years back, with a custom acoustic. I still marvel at the guitar when I open the case & can't believe it's mine. There's no cheap way of going  fully optioned to your requirements either, it's a costly indulgence but one I don't regret at all.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

I wonder how USACG do theirs - they do a few different compound radii, or you can just give them a nut and a heel radius and they'll do that too for a small upcharge.

 

[stratamania]

I wonder how USACG do theirs - they do a few different compound radii, or you can just give them a nut and a heel radius and they'll do that too for a small upcharge.

Probably a variable jig machine rather than fixed I would guess.

Perhaps it also depends on how many units you are turning around how flexible you want to be.

 

[Cagey]

That's a point. I know myself from years of woodworking that it often takes a lot longer to set up for an operation than to actually execute it. Once you're set up, you can make a piece over and over pretty easily and quickly. But, if the piece changes, you gotta go through setup again and it gobbles up time.

 

[cooler23]

As a suggestion if the thread had a title such as "Guitar Industry Innovations" and started with positive statements of what has been and is offered, and what else could we expect for the future it may have been received more positively.

Well, I understand the concept of having positive discussion, not blaming anyone and suggesting things rather than complaining. But, I don't think I started a negative discussion in a way I would be throwing dirt against Warmoth or anybody else. Many times I stated how great Warmoth is and how I love the guitar I have made from their parts. I tried to give reasonable arguments and to ask you all a lot. Also - honesty is sometimes not pleasant thing either to tell or to recieve it. But that does not mean that we shouldn't be telling what either of us don't like. In the end we are the customers and all the business on the free markets is base on making the customer happy and satisfied. And this is done by either giving him what he /she wants or need, or by creating such desire in him and then giving him something that will satisfy them. And remember - there is a question mark in the name of the thread

Imagine it as your favourite sports team - when you clearly see that they can do something, they have a potential somewhere, but they don't do it - it can be a chance to score a point, or to enter a higher league next season - you'll end up little (or very) disappointed. It doesn't matter if all other fans won't mind and are satisfied with the situation as it is (which I highly doubt could happen) - it is about you and your relationship with this team, your heart and your passion, your dreams of them winnig etc. It is you and the team. You and only you are the judge or them being good enough or not. And you should be free to tell them or express it somehow.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

cooler23, one thing that you also should be aware of is that people will often defend their favourite team's actions, even if those actions weren't that great. The same thing does happen here a little - someone will suggest something, and five people will come along and say "they don't need to, there's no point, nobody wants it, I wouldn't want that feature, actually it's not a good feature anyway" and so on. One that comes up from time to time is rolled edges on fingerboards. People have lots of seemingly good reasons why they don't do it, but those reasons don't explain why Musikraft and USACG do. Or there's the idea of choosing between 50/50 side dots or having them centred in the fingerboard wood, or choosing between narrow and wide 12th fret dot spacing. Again, not options you can get from Warmoth, but of course they could do it in theory.

Basically, for any new feature or product you can imagine, if Warmoth don't do it, the reason will simply be that starting it will not net them a significant enough increase in profit. If they started doing rolled edges, how many more necks would they sell than they do now? Not many. If they started doing 7.25-12, or 10-14 radii, how many more? Not many. But they would increase labour and tooling costs. So any business in their right mind would just say "we won't do it".

 

[cooler23]

1) Different compound radius fretboard. Warmoth just about pioneered the broader compound radius and why should they change the specs? I'd imagine to do that would require a "stop the machine" type situation and a re-programming. And they may have imperial data from earlier prototyping that says a tighter 7.25" radius as the starting point of the compound radius may be too distorting along the neck and feel funny?

Ok. Fair enough - but then I want to hear such argument from Warmoth - to tell me: sir, we've tested this many many times and 99% of clients be it pros or amateurs didn't like it at all. Their website is full of describtion and arguments why they do this and that so why wouldn't they tell this? They just say: no, we won't do this sir.

2) Microwave roasting of wood. Larger manufacturers of whole guitars are doing this. Let them test bed the longevity of their guitars, under warranty & beyond. I'm not sure where this idea came from, but blasting an organic material with microwaves seems quite unsettling to the molecular structure of the material. Does it maintain it's structural integrity? And who knows, 'Ernie so&so' may have trademarked the process and sue them (again) if Warmoth start doing it? Also sounds like such a process may call for some capital expenditure on new equipment too..

That is actually where I want Warmoth to test it and tell me weather microwaves are great for baking the wood or they ruin it. That is what I miss from Warmoth these days. And if 'Ernie so&so' have trademarked the process then I want them to develop their own - maybe even better one. And if that is not possible because it would be very expensive then there are always suppliers of wood where they can simply buy it.

4) Evertune rout. To me, I see that Warmoth have at least tried to introduce this routing. But I do recall reading (here?) about customers having to shave bits of the routing to get their Evertune bridges to fit. Maybe Warmoth got the version that started out and then as the Evertune evolved it may have changed shape slightly? Maybe after two returns from customers saying: "It won't fit" they put a hold on the bridge routing til the design settles down?

Well, I appreciate that they've at least tried it. But from what you describe it seems that they give up trying quite easily. But again - there should be some explanation or maybe they try to involve the clients as well so that they give them the feedback what's wrong so that they can change the design of the rout. Or maybe there is a problem on Evertune's side - but that again should be explained so that I can complain to Evertune about that and not Warmoth.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

I've just read your first post again. To sum up, you started with needs and desires that coincided with Warmoth's business model - quite basic with some customisation and nice options, and very good quality. Over the years, your needs and desires have become more exotic, and you're frustrated that Warmoth's not changed their target market or business model to accommodate your new preferences.

I've gotta say, it seems a lot like someone buying a Volkswagen, being really happy with it, and then getting interested in performance supercars over the next few years - and then, when it comes to time to buy that supercar, they're frustrated that Volkswagen doesn't make one*.

The stuff you want is available, just not from Warmoth, because it's not what Warmoth do, and not the market that Warmoth are aiming at.




* yes I know about the Veyron etc. Don't get pedantic please guys. Bear with me, it's just an illustration.

 

[cooler23]

cooler23, one thing that you also should be aware of is that people will often defend their favourite team's actions, even if those actions weren't that great. The same thing does happen here a little - someone will suggest something, and five people will come along and say "they don't need to, there's no point, nobody wants it, I wouldn't want that feature, actually it's not a good feature anyway" and so on. One that comes up from time to time is rolled edges on fingerboards. People have lots of seemingly good reasons why they don't do it, but those reasons don't explain why Musikraft and USACG do. Or there's the idea of choosing between 50/50 side dots or having them centred in the fingerboard wood, or choosing between narrow and wide 12th fret dot spacing. Again, not options you can get from Warmoth, but of course they could do it in theory.

Couldn't agree more on this! ;-)

Basically, for any new feature or product you can imagine, if Warmoth don't do it, the reason will simply be that starting it will not net them a significant enough increase in profit. If they started doing rolled edges, how many more necks would they sell than they do now? Not many. If they started doing 7.25-12, or 10-14 radii, how many more? Not many. But they would increase labour and tooling costs. So any business in their right mind would just say "we won't do it".

And here is where I'm not so sure. I mean does Warmoth know exactly how many potential customers they have lost by not offering some (mentioned or any other) options? I think that even the biggest and richest companies have only rough estimates at best and they spend $$$ for market research every second. And when I read many arguments on this thread why Warmoth cannot even turn some machine off to let it be serviced or replaced by some other (better) machine then I would doubt they have any capacity to monitor such customer behavior. And even if they do it - who can say for sure that this option would sell and that wouldn't. I think selling is not about just doing the new stuff and then wait for people go crazy after it. There are guitar companies that are selling cheapo cr*p by thousands even though their "improvements" or "innovations" are nothing more than marketing bulls**t.

If your company makes new kind of ice cream then you have to do a lot of shouting about that to be successful. That is unfortunately our world. And you can have all kind of selling arguments from pure lies and dreamy nonsense to hard scientific (but boring) data and anything in between. I'm inclining more to the scientific side of things. Introducing any of the past options (SS frets, compound radius) wouldn't be huge selling hit without the producer telling somehow the masses that it's good - the value for the customer again. And the same goes with the baked wood etc. I would agree that if Warmoth quitely introduce yet another side dots option - the sales wouldn't be rocket high all of a sudden. But let's imagine Warmoth will introduce a pack of new features in a campaign, maybe new poduct line, new videos, reviews, selling arguments supported by some data, then I would think (again - I'm not sure) customers would appreciate even such small things such as 50/50 side dots.

And it is not only about the cost of production - I'm sure Aston Martin could save huge pile of money but not offering 32 colors of leather for their seats and as much colors for the stitching and the same in every other aspect of car purchasing options. They could offer dark leather or beige and still 80-90% of the customers would buy it - even without such huge amount of options. But what would happen after 5-15 years of doing so? Their image, brand name and herritage would go down if not reversed by other efforts. I think they know they have to provide the feeling to their customers that they put out the effort, that (nearly) nothing would stop them to make the customer satisfied. And that is what makes them exclusive and special even though 80% of their cars are sold with "standard" dark leather. That is what Ruokangas, Suhr, Anderson and many others seem to be doing. The question is - how do you become Aston Martin of the guitar parts market? By going the extra 80% to show I can satisfy even the remaining 20% (and let them pay for it very generously).

Maybe I got it all wrong - maybe Warmoth is a Toyota of the guitar parts business and there's nothing bad about it. But I wish they had this Lexus divison, maybe a different brand name - more exclusive with sheer amount of options where nothing is impossible and still being the guitar parts company way less expensive then Suhr or Fender Custom Shop.

But to describe how should Warmoth do their sales and marketing is little off the topic of this thread.