transparent green on mahogany

[bagman67]

Howdy, all -

I just picked up a body on ebay on a minimum bid - and now i have to finish the dang thing.

What I'd like to do is replicate this finish:

As you can see, the mahogany is a one-piece body, and has a nicely irregular grain that I think will show nicely through a green stain.  The question is:  What should I use to achieve the green stain?  I don't want to get a muddy finish, but I don't want to run the risk of losing that nice streaking in the grain by bleaching.  Any thoughts?

Thanks

Bagman

 

[Steve_Karl]

Is there no link to example of the green you want to do?

 

[AutoBat]

Looked like he put the code in right for the pic, so I'll try it too.

it's http://www.carvinguitars.com/isa/images/full/cs3m-tg-99273.jpg if you need to copy/pasta to your browser.  Quite a stunning green finish I'd say.

 

[bagman67]

Looks like the photo is broken at the Carvin website.  I got a screenshot of the same guitar from a different part of the website and hosted it on Flickr - let's see if this works:

 

[Tonar8352]

I would do a sample board first to confirm that this will nail it but this is finishing schedule I would use to see if it worked.

Prep the wood real good for the dye to strike in deeply by blowing any sanding dust out of the open pours. You really want the pours open to soak up all the dye that it can and then you should get that dark streaking that you are seeing on the sample guitar.

1. Use Trans-Tint Green mixed with 2 parts lacquer thinner and one part lacquer retarder.  How much of the green to mix in will be your call depending how dark you want the dye to take.
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm
2. Shoot a wash coat of clear finish to lock the color in.
3. Use clear paste wood filler to fill the grain.
4. If it is not dark enough you can add a shade coat of transparent green after the surface is smooth and then go to the finish application.
5. Apply finish coats.

I hope that helps.

 

[rapfohl09]

Dude you got lucky that thing looks great, I don't really have any advice other than DO IT! This will be such a cool guitar if you realize the vision!

 

[bagman67]

I would do a sample board first to confirm that this will nail it but this is finishing schedule I would use to see if it worked.

Prep the wood real good for the dye to strike in deeply by blowing any sanding dust out of the open pours. You really want the pours open to soak up all the dye that it can and then you should get that dark streaking that you are seeing on the sample guitar.

1. Use Trans-Tint Green mixed with 2 parts lacquer thinner and one part lacquer retarder.  How much of the green to mix in will be your call depending how dark you want the dye to take.
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm
2. Shoot a wash coat of clear finish to lock the color in.
3. Use clear paste wood filler to fill the grain.
4. If it is not dark enough you can add a shade coat of transparent green after the surface is smooth and then go to the finish application.
5. Apply finish coats.

I hope that helps.

Thank you, Tonar - I hear and obey!

QUick questions:  When mixing my dye stain, is one lacquer thinner pretty much the same as another?  Same question for reducer.  Or if I am using a Behlen product like Qualalac (which I have a quart of in the Man Cave, and a couple preval units), should I use all Behlen thinners and reducers as well?  Or will that all gas off anyway, so it won't matter what I use for the dye? 

I presume I shouldn't fool around when it comes to actually thinning/reducing the Qualalac and just use the components from that finish system.

Rgds.,

Bagman

 

[bagman67]

...and one more question: 

Do I need to do anything to keep the endgrain from overabsorbing the dye and thus turning out much darker than the rest?

Thanks.

Bagman

 

[Tonar8352]

Use the thinners you have. 

I would not be afraid to thin your finish before you spray it but you will just have to do more coats but it should flow and level better so it will be easier to wet sand. I always thin my finish about 20% with a mixture of 2/3-lacquer thinner and 1/3 lacquer retarder.  The can will tell you to shoot it straight but they have to do that to stay legal.

On the end grain you should do a search for a stain controller and give it a try. I’m not sure it will work for you; if I were doing it I would shade the edges almost like a burst. I think that is the biggest reason you do see bursts, to hide all the crazy stuff you get with end grains.
In fact you sample guitar looks like they have done that .

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Is that green dye or transparent green paint in those pics? ^^^  :icon_scratch:

 

[Cagey]

On the end grain you should do a search for a stain controller and give it a try. I’m not sure it will work for you; if I were doing it I would shade the edges almost like a burst. I think that is the biggest reason you do see bursts, to hide all the crazy stuff you get with end grains.

I've had to do that more than once in the past, and did it on the mahogany body I'm working on now. The end grain always ends up darker at best, and splotchy or inconsistent at worst, so the thing to do is what you suggest - darken it on purpose to hide it all.

I'm really surprised at the green in the sample guitar above. I wouldn't have thought it would come out that way. I would expect green over brownish-red to produce a snotty shade of greenish-brown.

 

[rapfohl09]

On the end grain you should do a search for a stain controller and give it a try. I’m not sure it will work for you; if I were doing it I would shade the edges almost like a burst. I think that is the biggest reason you do see bursts, to hide all the crazy stuff you get with end grains.

I've had to do that more than once in the past, and did it on the mahogany body I'm working on now. The end grain always ends up darker at best, and splotchy or inconsistent at worst, so the thing to do is what you suggest - darken it on purpose to hide it all.

I'm really surprised at the green in the sample guitar above. I wouldn't have thought it would come out that way. I would expect green over brownish-red to produce a snotty shade of greenish-brown.

I would think it would be too much work for a factory finish, but they may have bleached the mahogany beforehand.

 

[bagman67]

Okay, it's officially going to be a half-'moth.  I scored a purportedly unused canary/ebony Warmoth pro telecaster neck on the 'bay  - black graphtech nut, standard thin, stainless frets (dunno the gauge, but I'm flexible), dunno the tuning peg ream, but I can always bore it out to accommodate the PW's I'm favoring lately if it's too small (too large seems unlikely). 

I think the naked canary will contrast nicely with the mahogany, and the mild streaking will echo the streaking in the body.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=230637010754&si=P3Gyjr7Fwp3nhrZS3N6itnLzng4%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT#ht_500wt_1156

 

[bagman67]

Well, having tried the Tonar-recommended steps, I'm a little ambivalent about the results.  Behold, a sample board (slightly lighter than the guitar body), stained per the mix of dye and thinner and retarder in the finishing schedule, and then lacquered with a clearcoat.  Filler has not yet been applied. 

In direct sunlight, the mahogany's red shows pretty well:

In the shade, not so much:

I taped off another segment of my test board and bleached it with a two-part bleach; results are inconclusive.  I did not leave it on for the full ten minutes, but stopped at 8 on the theory that I do not want to lose all of the streaking.  It does not appear to have lightened enough to make a significant difference in the final color.

Lacquered, in direct sunlight but tipped to avoid glare off the coating:

Obviously I did a poor job staining the second test - you can see a lot of unstained pores.  This is what comes of working after dark on something like this.

I don't have a photo yet, but I mixed some lacquer up with the same green dye and tried shooting some of that as a toner, and it's too dark and too close to opaque for the face of the guitar, but it will definitely be what I use as a burst edge to cover the endgrain wackiness that's bound to ensue.

I'm going to tape off a segment and let it bleach the full period the packaging suggests, and possibly bleach another segment twice.  I also have a Mixol grass green that I might try.

Wheeee!

Bagman

 

[bagman67]

VICTORY!

Mixol Grass Green (no. 15) and 2 parts lacquer thinner to one part reducer appears to have done the trick.  This is a somewhat yellower green and appears to have tamed the red in the mahogany.  I tried this instead of rebleaching simply because it was faster.

Voila:

I reckon the clear topcoat will probably darken it just a tad.  For comparison:

With a little clear topcoat:

 

[Cagey]

Looks good! I wonder if having a hard finish on it will keep it from oxidizing?

 

[bagman67]

Looks good! I wonder if having a hard finish on it will keep it from oxidizing?

What part do you expect might oxidize - the Mixol green stuff, or the underlying mahogany?

 

[Cagey]

The mahogany. It's what makes it red or brown, depending on its origin. I colored a mahogany body with potassium dichromate, and it turned brown, which sorta says it's African mahogany. It does that by accelerating the oxidization of the tannins in the wood.

 

[bagman67]

Made some progress today.  Imagine this with the following:
Black P90's
Nickel control plate and flat-top barrel knobs
canary neck with ebony board, MOP dots
Thinking about a custom LPS-style pickguard a la Max's Tonarcaster.

Going with this bridge (Hipshot stainless hardtail):

 

[Cagey]

Wow. Did you bleach that? I'm surprised at the tone of the green. I'd have expected it to come out more brown.