This is why my tone is bad.

[Dan025]

I don't like Apple, don't like most of their products, and certainly don't like the trendy people that use them, but I do like iPhones, and have been using one for the past four years. I just happen to think that Apple's approach to very simple and elegant operating systems suits cell phones well. Of course, I'm not super picky with my phone, either. People usually assume that because I have my OCD-ish issues with being connected to internet-land all the time, I must have a **** load of apps, but I don't. I mostly use my phone for internet and emailing, then only a handful of apps like Pandora, Shazam, Netflix, Flickr, mobile banking, etc. (The alarm clock is my least favorite frequently used app, however.) Computers are a different story. An iMac or a MacBook or what have you most certainly does not suit my needs, and I have been with Microsoft operating systems since the beginning. I don't know how people can be happy with a Mac, but nonetheless, I don't care. I work with what suits me and my needs.

you're right the simplicity does suit phones pretty well. still a lot i don't like about it. there is a lot i don't like about android as well but i consider it the lesser of two evils because whatever i don't like about android i just root the phone and delete or replace with things i like. ok that's not for everyone. i also agree i would never be satisfies with an apple computer. and yes i have used them. i can explain exactly the the things i despise about them, this isn't a "you're just used to PCs" thing. i think a lot about the apple interface is just bad decisions. the biggest gripe i have about it is a lack of visual reference for everyday functions. sure i can learn hot keys, but i found task switching on apple computers very frustrating because on a pc with any operating system i never needed to learn, it's been pretty self explainitory. the taskbar is self explainitory and the option to ope a new window is not hidden in a menu. i have used fluxbox, gnome, kde, lxde, and xfce, in linux and i've replaced explorer in windows with wez's evil shell and 2 other alternative window managers (can't remember the names) i have never been as frustrated with any of them as i was with apple. and wez's evil shell and fluxbox are actually much more simplistic than apple, so you can get function with simplicity. simplicity isn't unique to apple.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Thing is, I know a lot of Mac-only guys, and when they try to do stuff on a PC it's exactly the same. They don't seem to find the taskbar self-explanatory at all, because they're trying to use it like the dock (whereas a Windows user on a Mac tries to use the dock like the taskbar). They think it's ludicrous that you can't just press F4 (or something) and see all the windows you've got open, then just click one to switch to it. They're power users of OSX and they are completely uncatered for by Windows.

Like I say, they're both very good, but if you're a power user of one, you'll be frustrated by the other. It took me a year on OSX before I was as comfortable with it as I am Windows - but Windows I've been using since 3.1, so I've had all the changes introduced gradually.

 

[Dan025]

well there are key combos on any pc to show all the windows and to tab through them, most people dont know them because they don't need to. i'm a little rusty myself but alt+tab will switch you through them, i don't remember how to list them all, but of coarse they are all listed on the taskbar anyway. on linux i have mouse gestures that do all that and more, but i mostly just use the taskbar.

but that's the thing you can use the keyboard for speed on a pc, it's just as easy to learn hot keys on a pc as on a mac, but you don't have to.  on a mac you need to first know that hotkeys are a method to switch tasks, then search for the proper hotkeys to do what you need, there is a learning curve but a pc has a visual alternative to offset that. then when you want two windows open (useful for file managers and occasionally web browsers) you have to search through menus, your instinct is to look for the program and open it again, but mac thinks that you don't want clutter and brings the already open window into view, ok i can deal with that, but then i scratch my head on how to do something i do every day on any other operating system. if it was a toolbar item i'd say cool, i can see it, but it's an option in a menu that doesn't stand out, i can't figure why they wouldn't make it stand out especially this being something unique to apple, i would think it should be visible so anyone can use it with no prior exposure to it, not just "mac users." they could easily cut out the learning curve with a few slight alterations and still be clean and unique. but they don't. they just add more features to switch tasks for you to learn. if you have to learn it it's not intuitive.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

but then i scratch my head on how to do something i do every day on any other operating system

What you don't seem to get is that this is exactly the same for someone who does these things every day on a Mac who then tries it on Windows. What you are trying to do is use OSX as if it was Windows, getting it to do all the same things. It's the way of working that's different - OSX isn't just a different interface for doing everything exactly as you would in Windows. That's what took me some time to realise. Don't try and turn it into Windows; try and use it how it's designed to work. The number one tool for window management in OSX is Exposé (now called Mission Control ffs), which doesn't really have an equivalent in Windows.

(Alt+tab has an exact equivalent on OSX - Cmd+Tab. It works in exactly the same way.)

You're arguing that OSX is objectively less easy to use than Windows and you don't seem to realise how much your unfamiliarity with it is clouding the issue.

Having said all that, I use both a lot and I do prefer Windows' window management paradigm. I think the W7 taskbar is brilliant. All I'm trying to say is, all those people who love it aren't wrong, they're different.

I think arguing about how easy something is to use the first time you use it (or saying something is better because "my grandma can use it") is pretty pointless. It's much easier to get a tune out of a piano than a guitar the first time you use it, but that doesn't make pianos better. Ease of first use and ease of continued use aren't necessarily connected.

The things I miss about OSX when I go back to Windows are: AirDrop and Spaces, which just don't have an equivalent in Windows. And there's some nice under the hood stuff like the OS-level AutoSave so that any app can have reliable auto-save. But then, Windows 7 has amazing developer support, is faster (yes it is - even running on a Mac) and, to me, feels more streamlined. It also has wayyyy more little freeware downloadable apps.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Wow, glad to see some people STILL don't get what I mean by a "Microsoft-based computer."  Just...WOW.  Who's talking about specific brands?  If it ain't an Apple, it's a Microsoft-based computer.  DUH.

Next, I'm no Apple fanboy, so whoever insinuated that knows what they can do with it.  I said I've never had a Microsoft-based computer that's been as reliable as my Apple, and therefore don't have ANYTHING good to say about them.

I had an HTC Evo (Gingerbread software?) which was great, save for the way too sensitive touchscreen and updates every 24 hours.  I lost it and wound up with an iPhone 4s.  Sure, it's a cool phone but there are a lot of things I don't like about it.  It's great because it's easily compatible with my computer (obviously) so swapping stuff from one to the other is a breeze.  It wasn't so easy with the HTC.

My Microsoft-based computers lasted an average of 1.5 years before performance took a crap, not to mention the virus scans that slowed ALL of them to a crawl right from the start.  Not the case with the Mac!  Sure, it cost me $280 for a repair(I found the receipt last night) but that's A LOT cheaper than $1400 for a new computer every one and a half to two years.

It isn't a matter of which OS I like better, it's a matter of reliability and performance.  Simply put, I have not had good luck with ANY manufacturer's computers except for Apple.  Period.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

OK. I think the problem is that we took exception to you calling them Microsoft-based computers when every problem you've had with them has been caused by someone other than Microsoft. Bad hardware, and virus scans. Neither of those are made by Microsoft. I don't run anti-virus software because I'm experienced enough not to need it. That plus leaving UAC turned on keeps my PC clean.

Same with performance. I install what I need, and nothing more. The thing that slows down PCs over time is people install crapware that sits there down in the system tray taking up a bit of memory and doing a bit of hard drive access. More and more of these little apps build up and all of a sudden, Windows is terrible because it's going slowly now. Yeah and Ford make terrible cars because if you fill them up with bricks they go slowly too.

I've tended to build my own PCs for a few years now. It's cheaper and I guess it's the same thing as Warmoth. You get what you want. You also don't get the 5GB of shovelware that people like Dell put on their machines in the factory. First thing you have to do when you get a Dell, an HP, whatever, is format the whole thing and install Windows from scratch. Then you get to see how fast the computer you just bought is.

$1400 every 18-24 months is either an exaggeration or there's something very wrong. I can't imagine how you manage to spend $1400 on a PC. I usually have to pay around $500 for a PC and it lasts until some piece of software comes out that I can't live without, but requires better hardware. This is usually about 5 years. Then I upgrade it if possible, or get a new one if not. I dunno, maybe you're at the absolute leading edge of CPU and GPU requirements or something, but the fact that a Mac can do everything you want suggests not.

As far as I'm aware, you're the first person to use the term "fanboy" in this thread.

There's no question at all that my MacBook Pro is the best piece of laptop hardware I've ever owned. However, I almost always boot it into Windows. This is partly because Windows takes about 80 seconds before I'm working, and OSX takes about 3 minutes. But also, while I'm using it, Windows is quicker too.

If Macs weren't so expensive, I would probably continue with Apple hardware and MS software. But I think it's silly for me to pay a premium just for the hardware when I'm not even going to use the piece of software that is most people's reason for buying the thing. So sadly, my next laptop will probably be nowhere near as nice hardware-wise, but will be a hell of a lot cheaper and will allow me to get my work done just as well.

 

[swarfrat]

Wow, glad to see some people STILL don't get what I mean by a "Microsoft-based computer."  Just...WOW.  Who's talking about specific brands?  If it ain't an Apple, it's a Microsoft-based computer.  DUH.

There's quite a number of us who would take exception with that statement. My PC's have been microsoft free for 18 years. My wife, who is not a computer person has been using Linux without problems for 5 years now.  Your average person probably has 5 or more Linux devices in their home now.

 

[Soylent]

line6man, your tone is bad because you are bad.. duh.

:laughing7:

 

[Cagey]

OK. I think the problem is that we took exception to you calling them Microsoft-based computers when every problem you've had with them has been caused by someone other than Microsoft.

Well, for my part it's that Microsoft doesn't make or dictate the design of computers any more than houses, furniture or guitars make or dictate the design of trees. With computers, you can say it's an x86-based platform, a RISC-based platform, an ARM-based platform, or something along those lines. At least then you know what you're dealing with. There's a certain architecture (originally designed by IBM), instruction set and BIOS associated with an x86-based machine. I have several of them here and they all run Linux. Are they Linux-based computers? Not at all. I can install a variety of operating systems on them from a number of vendors including Apple, whose machines are now also x86-based since Steve Jobs' second coming. There's actually little difference between them and most other PCs other than industrial design and OS, and they're ALL made in China. That's why people resent the pricing of Apple's offerings. There's no good reason for it. They're just gouging people because they've created a perception in the market that they're better.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

The one argument they might have, is if they were paying the Chinese a decent US-sized salary. But they're not, despite the fact that they're clearly very good at building this stuff. I'm absolutely happy for things to be expensive if I think the money's going to the right place. But if people are still working in sweatshops while the execs line they're pockets, it's not so great.

 

[Cagey]

Giving the Chinese factory worker a US equivalent wage/benefits package would be like giving a US factory worker $600/hr.

They have a lifestyle and cost of living that's dramatically lower than ours. If we could feed a family of 4 with $7 worth of groceries per week and didn't need $30K cars or $250K houses, etc., then our wages here wouldn't be so high, either. If they're happy, I'm happy. If they're not, they're welcome here. Asian girls are easy on the eyes <grin>

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Conversely, if everyone in the US got paid less, those house prices would come down pretty quick.

I love that you think a $250K house is over the top. My place cost $450K, is the top two floors of a small house, and has two bedrooms, a kitchen, a lounge and a bathroom. When I bought it, I was universally commended for having been sensible and not stretched too far.

Anyway, I agree with you about the $600/hr thing. So if those things are gonna be that cheap to make, how come they cost so much? That's what I object to, build 'em cheap and sell 'em dear. I guess that's capitalism, but I reckon it'd be nice if they said "you know what? We're making a fortune. Special treat - we're doubling your salary". Why shouldn't the people that make iPhones be a bit better paid than your average worker? It's a prestigious product.

As for "they're welcome here". Sadly that does not seem to tie up with US (or, for that matter, UK) immigration policy. I know, I've tried - and I've got serious economy-boosting skills.

 

[Cagey]

Conversely, if everyone in the US got paid less, those house prices would come down pretty quick.

It would appear that's happening here. Beyond the obvious problems of the government and financiers gaming the system too aggressively in some misguided egalitarian effort to "equalize" everybody under their thumbs, the whole economic system is based on constant growth, so price inflation became a way of life. This in turn drives monetary inflation, which exacerbates the problem.

I love that you think a $250K house is over the top. My place cost $450K, is the top two floors of a small house, and has two bedrooms, a kitchen, a lounge and a bathroom. When I bought it, I was universally commended for having been sensible and not stretched too far.

I didn't know what number to put there. Costs vary pretty widely in the US. For instance, it's not unusual to pay $2K-$3K/mo for a nominal apartment in New York, and there are no houses to speak of. Everything is multi-family until you get well outside the city. In the metro Detroit area, $600-$800 will get you a much nicer/larger apartment, and we have houses up the wazoo that probably average $250K for a decent 1,500 sq.' ranch. Go to some areas of California and you're looking at $500K+ for a ramshackle lean-to smaller than most apartments, and they go up fast from there.

Anyway, I agree with you about the $600/hr thing. So if those things are gonna be that cheap to make, how come they cost so much? That's what I object to, build 'em cheap and sell 'em dear. I guess that's capitalism, but I reckon it'd be nice if they said "you know what? We're making a fortune. Special treat - we're doubling your salary". Why shouldn't the people that make iPhones be a bit better paid than your average worker? It's a prestigious product.

That's Apple for you, and why many people resent them. They're shamelessly gouging the public. It's nice stuff, don't get me wrong, but Mr. Jobs just put his foot down and said "we want this much, and that's all there is to it." People with more money than brains paid the price, the stuff is locked up tighter than a drum so it doesn't fail like Microsoft's stuff does, and they got a reputation for being worth the money. Now that Microsoft's stuff doesn't fail every 45 seconds, you'd think they'd just take over but it's too late. Everybody associates them with myriad insoluble problems and a corporate hegemony that makes Russia look positively liberal, and probably will forever.

As for "they're welcome here". Sadly that does not seem to tie up with US (or, for that matter, UK) immigration policy. I know, I've tried - and I've got serious economy-boosting skills.

Fly to Mexico, and just cross the border in an open area. There's about 2,000 miles of it, I think, most of it unfenced and unpatrolled. Get a good job picking cantalopes or tomatoes and you're here, where the streets are paved with gold! <grin>

Actually, for you it might be easier to come through Canada. Same thing, though. Actually, you might rather stay in Canada. We have some seriously bad government here right now, and currently the odds are even that it's going to get worse. Besides, if you live in Canada, you can easily come here everyday to work. Many Canadians do.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Conversely, if everyone in the US got paid less, those house prices would come down pretty quick.

I love that you think a $250K house is over the top. My place cost $450K, is the top two floors of a small house, and has two bedrooms, a kitchen, a lounge and a bathroom. When I bought it, I was universally commended for having been sensible and not stretched too far.

Anyway, I agree with you about the $600/hr thing. So if those things are gonna be that cheap to make, how come they cost so much? That's what I object to, build 'em cheap and sell 'em dear. I guess that's capitalism, but I reckon it'd be nice if they said "you know what? We're making a fortune. Special treat - we're doubling your salary". Why shouldn't the people that make iPhones be a bit better paid than your average worker? It's a prestigious product.

As for "they're welcome here". Sadly that does not seem to tie up with US (or, for that matter, UK) immigration policy. I know, I've tried - and I've got serious economy-boosting skills.

Where are you living that you paid $450,000 for a home and only own the "top two floors of a small house?"  Granted, I live in Inbredville, WV, but for $335,000 we got a newly constructed, 5400 sq ft home with 1/2 acre of property.  At the time, that was one hell of a good price, but with the fall of the economy, we'd be hard-pressed to get $280,000 for it...

 

[Cagey]

He lives in Ol' Blighty. And you've surely heard the observation that "they ain't makin' no more land!". Well, they have a helluva lot less land than we do. Supply and demand rears its ugly head, and the rest is history.

 

[SustainerPlayer]

I don't like Apple, don't like most of their products, and certainly don't like the trendy people that use them, but I do like iPhones, and have been using one for the past four years. I just happen to think that Apple's approach to very simple and elegant operating systems suits cell phones well. Of course, I'm not super picky with my phone, either. People usually assume that because I have my OCD-ish issues with being connected to internet-land all the time, I must have a **** load of apps, but I don't. I mostly use my phone for internet and emailing, then only a handful of apps like Pandora, Shazam, Netflix, Flickr, mobile banking, etc. (The alarm clock is my least favorite frequently used app, however.) Computers are a different story. An iMac or a MacBook or what have you most certainly does not suit my needs, and I have been with Microsoft operating systems since the beginning. I don't know how people can be happy with a Mac, but nonetheless, I don't care. I work with what suits me and my needs.

This is why your tone is bad.

 

[m4rk0]

line6man, your tone is bad because you are bad.. duh.

:laughing7:

And he's the only guitarist in the village...

 

[Ddbltrbl]

line6man, your tone is bad because you are bad.. duh.

:laughing7:

And he's the only guitarist in the village...

... located somewhere in the Xinjiang Province of China were signal propogation is totally determined by the iron content in the air born dust, so Cagey's coat hangers are just not going to be of any help at all!!  :toothy12:

 

[bagman67]

Then maybe he should get  a set of these:

Wait...what????

 

[Soylent]

They do look cool..

I should make some that do nothing, just for the look.