Set neck vs. bolt on sustain; testing the conventional wisdom.

[anorakDan]

I hope this isn't something already shared. This appeared on my Facebook feed:

http://www.cycfi.com/2013/11/sustain-myth-science/

I hope more science gets done like this.

 

[musicispeace]

Interesting and sure to sprout debate  All I can say is the strat Cagey put together for me where he did (if I recall correctly) inserts with screws rather than just the normal bolting on the neck sustains for the proverbial days.

 

[stratamania]

It may be when people are discussing terms like more or less sustain they are really meaning the difference in the character of the ASDR of the note without knowing it. Or one seems warmer than the other.

Its all subjective of course.  At the end of the day use your ears and if you like how something sounds / feels you like it.

I have and like examples of both of the main types of neck fittings.

 

[drewfx]

I hope more science gets done like this.

That isn't science. In real science you have to very carefully eliminate all other differences than the one you're testing. "Plucking hard" on instruments with a huge variety of differences besides the neck joint and then manipulating the results when one knows which is which and then implying the the measured and interpreted differences are due to only a single factor is a worthless exercise. Bad attempts at "science" do not produce useful results. Instead it produces misleading results as people are distracted by all the "sciencey" graphics and claims from the fact that it's not a proper and careful comparison with appropriate controls and double blind analysis of the data. It's those very factors (that are completely ignored here) that give scientific results their weight.

 

[new-killer-star]

I hope more science gets done like this.

That isn't science. In real science you have to very carefully eliminate all other differences than the one you're testing...

This is so true, if you read the article (I had read it before) it states that he found some clean samples, he didn't even attempt to pluck them the same.

 

[amigarobbo]

That isn't science. In real science you have to very carefully eliminate all other differences than the one you're testing. Bad attempts at "science" do not produce useful results. Instead it produces misleading results as people are distracted by all the "sciencey" graphics and claims from the fact that it's not a proper and careful comparison with appropriate controls and double blind analysis of the data. It's those very factors (that are completely ignored here) that give scientific results their weight.

Like people pontificating in front of a whiteboard explaining string vibrations while ignoring the fact that the math(s) is biased on a model with infinitely massive, stable and reflective bridge.


You know what I'm saying.

Best sustain I ever heard was on a Steinberger bass, probably the worse was on an all maple straight through neck solid bodied Rickenbacker 620, so go figure.

 

[Cagey]

In real science you have to very carefully eliminate all other differences than the one you're testing. 

Right. I noticed the lack of rigor applied for this little "test" as well. Most dogma about electric guitars suffers the same flaw, which is why so many arguments continue to exist.

Still, such investigation is good to see and should be encouraged.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

This was floating around on FB.  I'd add that the only real comparison being made is sustain being measured on E standard of a 25.5" scale instrument vs E standard of 24 3/4" scale instrument.  One would already know that the same pitch at different lengths would yield different results.  To interject neck joint, breakover angle, bridge type, etc. and make no mention of scale length and string gauge....blah blah blah.  I digress.

 

[drewfx]

Still, such investigation is good to see and should be encouraged.

I agree and to a certain extent I hate to dump on people attempting to investigate with good intentions. There's an another acoustic guitar guy who did a thing on glue that's even worse, and I feel bad because he obviously spent a lot of time doing his experiments, but he was utterly and completely incompetent in several respects. And if you do it wrong and people mistake it for real science, it opens the door for marketing folks deliberately using pseudo science to mislead people. Also, over time, faulty experiments and the ability to draw sweeping conclusions that don't match the scope of the experiment undermine the weight of the results for the people who do it properly and jump through hoops to dot every "i" and cross every "t".

The point is it's really, really hard to do good science, but that's exactly what gives the results their weight.

 

[Cagey]

I'm still waiting on a "tone control" capacitor shootout where they even bother to measure the capactance of the capacitors they're comparing. There are a number of them on YouTube that purportedly prove once and for all that a capacitor's construction has an effect on tone, but nobody ever checks the part that supposed to be making the difference. You would think that would be the first thing you'd check, if upon changing a capacitor you noticed a difference in response.

 

[amigarobbo]

I believe the Ovation Magnum bass has a neck that is both bolted and lightly glued on.  :icon_scratch:

I wonder if the sustain would increase or decrease if you unscrewed it and just had the glue holding it together?  :evil4:


Or you could remove the glue and see if the only screw holding it together would make a difference?

I suspect without glue or screws the sustain would be terrible. More than that I'd would not like to guess.

 

[Cagey]

I suspect without glue or screws the sustain would be terrible. More than that I'd would not like to guess.

Clearly, a YouTube video is in order.

 

[amigarobbo]

Well, if someone were to buy me this,

https://reverb.com/item/150313-ovation-magnum-i-fretless-70s-mahogany-with-ohsc-and-case-candy

I'd be more than happy to test it.

Eventually, when I've found time to do it. Any day now. You can trust me.  :evil4: :evil4: