Scalloped Neck wood chips: How much do they weigh?

[DustyCat]

I am curious how much weight is shaved off a neck after scalloping, and whether or not more weight might be shaved off with a deeper scallop.

My scalloped necks look like they could handle a much deeper scallop and thus more weight shaved.
A bevel on the outside edge of the headstock would also save some weight.

 

[stubhead]

A large number of people including many builders equate total neck weight with better tone. A few, like Vigier and Hamer, even spec oversize tuners. What is the issue you're trying to solve? Neck dive? Or total weight... either has better solutions, IMO.

 

[DustyCat]

There was no issue to be solved.

I asked a question and wanted an answer.

You looked further into it than necessary.

But to answer YOUR question, the neck is radically disproportionate in weight to the body (hollowbody i know, but still). Extra tone or no extra tone, I would gladly shave down the weight with a slightly deeper scallop and of course, a headstock edge bevel, which was unavailable at the time i ordered my neck. IDK why, there is plenty of room to relieve a bevel on the edge of the headstock.

 

[bagman67]

My instinctive response is that scalloping a neck is unlikely to result in significant weigh reduction - you're just not removing that much wood, by volume, in the aggregate.  You would probably lose more weight be reprofiling the back of the neck. 


I think you're probably better off just shopping for a lighter neck - maybe a graphite fiber one, if you don't have a problem with the loss of tone worms  - rather than monkeying around with one that is already demonstrably too heavy to balance.  Or you could do what Mike Gordon does when playing a acoustic bass guitar - he hangs a foot of heavy chain off the rear strap button.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

The weight of a neck is astonishing low to begin with.  Neck dive and balance issues usually have more to with length (guitar vs. baritone vs. neck) compared to strap button placement and metal hardware on the very end.  I say that not to infer your having those issues, only that it's not neckwood weight causing them.  The quantum view emails for necks usually have their weight around 3 lbs., and includes the neck, all the packing material, a box, a rubber band, and a $2 sticker.  That probably puts the weight at 2 to 2 1/2 pounds for the neck (depending on construction).  Now, assume a normal full scallop takes away how much, 1/2 an ounce?  Compared to 2 pounds?  How much would a deeper scallop take away?

 

[DustyCat]

  How much would a deeper scallop take away?

No comparisons, no jumping to conclusions (although that was an interesting city in The Phantom Tollbooth, 3 guesses as to how you get there.

No sir, just a simple answer is all I am looking for, but sure I will take an entire ounce please. In fact, make it 2 please.

Actually, I am surprised you "experts" did not first ask what kind of wood the neck was constructed from. Or...do all neck all woods weigh the same...I kid, I kid  :tard:

 

[Cagey]

I'd be real surprised if the wood removed by scalloping weighed as much as a couple ounces. Probably less. But, to be honest, I'm just guessing. Who measures such things? For that matter, who scallops their neck any more? Throw a set of 6100s on there and unless you're the incredible hulk, it doesn't matter. It'll feel like a scalloped 'board anyway. You're not going to be touching any wood. If you are, you're guaranteed to be playing out of tune.

Plus you'll earn no end of ridicule

Of course, if you think you can play a scalloped neck, then 6100s won't present any special kind of problem. You've already got the touch.

 

[swarfrat]

As I said on the V thread, balance is 98% geometry and 2% wood density. Not only is the weight due to scalloping miniscule, it's distributed along the length of the neck, so even if it could remove 50% of the weight of the neck, it's contribution to balance issues would still be negligible.

About the only things you can do to a neck to help balance are 1) lighter tuners, 2) stock removal at the headstock, and 3) move the neck joint further into the body.

Not that 3) is practical, just saying geomtery. The V has no place to put a strap button further out.  Paul Gilbert fixed the Iceman's poory balance gene it inherited from Gibson's Explorer by making a left handed reverse Iceman and calling it the Fireman. The SG has a mini horn, but the neck/bridge are thrust waaaay out, so even that stubby horn's leverage is taken away.  Gibson has a history of treating the strap button as an afterthought. Any place you can drill a hole!

 

[stubhead]

For that matter, who scallops their neck any more? Throw a set of 6100s on there and unless you're the incredible hulk, it doesn't matter. It'll feel like a scalloped 'board anyway.

:sad1: Sadly, it appears that the few filthy purveyors of anti-scalloped guitars still left "have had their way" with the unfortunate  Cagester's po' l'il brain.  Send flowers.* I think maybe even Warmoth uses that "6100's for a scalloped feel' meme, no matter that the people originating it can hardly have ever owned a scalloped neck instrument, because if they had, they wouldn't say such silly things.

Big frets feel very little like a scalloped neck. The issue is not with the wood underneath each finger; it's the wood between the strings! There's nothing to lean against while doing inane licks with your index finger barre'ing across several strings and the rest of your fingers wilding flapdoodlery above. These types of licks make little sense on a guitar where, if you got your index finger locked down on a fret, and you begin the flapping, every string is going to be held down by TWO fingers. A neurological analogy might be the "double crush" syndrome, wherein a nerve that is pinched or damaged in two or more places may start sending pain images of a multiplicative nature, rather than the simpler and more customary additive effect.

Like if your tooling around on your fretless bass or scalloped neck guitar it can quite often sound as though the people you're playing with are all out of tune. But not with each other... so you get mad and start playing harder at the same time you're trying to concentrate totally on staying in tune. Neither of which can help you one bit. It really does take practice, and the people who play a scalloped neck guitar for five minutes and say "E-eeyew! It's all out of tune!" Umm... it wasn't out of tune till YOU started playing it.

Playing style has a lot to do with it, it demands attention. And all the knee-rockers with the guitar so low, and the reliance on flappy-hand - no. All of the guitarists I know of who have earned money playing scallops have their guitar strung pretty high, and the have internalized the "correct" left hand playing position of thumb behind the neck as the default positioning, the thumb only peeps up over the finger board as leverage for bends or occasionally fretting with the thumb too. But the only way to play one is to buy one, and it then takes a least a few months of practice to get familiar with it.

One of the main reasons electric guitar seeming took over the world for a stretch there is because, let's face it, it's pretty easy to get pretty good at it over several years. I've heard people who have been playing even two years only and they could do certain things really well. But scalloped necks are not something you can watch a video on and now you "know" how to do it.

 

[Cagey]

You're probably right; I'm speaking out of turn. I don't have a scalloped neck here to use and abuse properly. But, it occurs to me that if your fingers aren't touching the fretboard because the frets are so tall, what difference does it make how far below the strings the fretboard is? There are no eyes on the ends of your fingers so if you aren't touching it, a tenth of an inch is as good as a mile. For all intents and purposes, it ain't there. The string essentially stops at fret contact, not board contact. Unless, of course, you're manhandling the thing.

Even then, different people seem to handle that better than others. I have one buddy who's retuning my guitar(s) 4 or 5 seconds after he picks one up because he's got a death grip on the neck. Then my brother seems to actually wrestle with the damn neck while he's playing, but has no problem with tuning. In fact, he can tell when this particular buddy has been playing one because it's all out of tune. Normally, if a guitar is out on a stand and I'm the last one who's played it, it's in tune unless it's been sitting there a long time.

 

[DustyCat]

Thanks for all of your replies. I was going to say "You are unable to give me a straight answer because you do not know the answer yourselves" but this thread has taken a turn, still rife with interesting information.  :hello2:

You're probably right;...have a scalloped neck... so if you aren't touching it, a tenth of an inch is as good as a mile.

That is exactly my point. When I got my first scalloped neck from W, I could not rightly say that this neck had been scalloped because I expected deeper scalloping. I also run 6100's so maybe the proportion was further skewed than I was used to from traditionally constructed, non-scalloped fingerboards.

But if you ask me, and Im a total n00b at construction, there is more room in the neck to scallop deeper without compromising the integrity of the wood. And, bringing it home once again, if you run 6100's and your fingers dont ever touch the wood, you might as well go scalloped, deeper scalloped and save on the weight of the neck since that extra 1/16" wider nut width is going to be mean a heavier neck.

I mean, my Tele (2nd scalloped neck) was built beautifully and the neck that came with the guitar looked like it was matched to the body, but its just too narrow for me and I need that extra 1/16" width nut, but not the extra weight.

Remember: Scalloped chips AND Headstock Bevel chips. Maybe 2mm x 2mm on the edge of the entire headstock. It must weight something.  :dontknow:

 

[JaySwear]

I bet you could have it down and wouldn't notice a difference when standing with it. Unfortunately. I wouldn't do anything unless you want to do it for a feel-reason. If its just being done for weight I'd leave it. Just my 2c.

Also, pictures  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Cagey]

Remember: Scalloped chips AND Headstock Bevel chips. Maybe 2mm x 2mm on the edge of the entire headstock. It must weight something.  :dontknow:

I'm sure they weigh something; I just can't imagine it being significant enough to notice without instrumentation.

But, for what it's worth...

The wood, truss rod and tuners can add up to a substantial difference. Late last year I got a Strat neck in from a customer that was Rosewood over Maple while I still had my Ebony over Bloodwood neck loose. The Maple neck was a "vintage" design, so it had the traditional single-acting truss rod. He also had a set of beer can tuners from Kluson rather than the lockers sane people use. My Bloodwood neck has the denser woods, a dual-acting truss rod, and a set of Schaller mini-lockers.

That stack-up of variables returned a weight difference that was dramatic. The Maple part weighed just a hair over a pound, while the Bloodwood part was exactly 2 pounds. So, roughly a 95% difference in weight for what were dimensionally identical necks. Don't need instrumentation for that; you can feel it immediately.

I should mention that the tuners aren't as big a contributor to that difference as you might imagine. For as cheap and flimsy as a set of vintage Klusons are, they're only about 2.5 ounces lighter than a set of locking Schallers (6.2oz vs. 8.7oz).

 

[alterbridgefan]

Still got those klusons? I don't think I'm sane...

:laughing7:

 

[Cagey]

Yup. They're a brand new set off a Gibson, so they're a 3x3 configuration. If you're thinking about your Jaguar/Jazzmaster, they won't work. But, I get necks through here all the time and sometimes tuner replacement is part of the job. Normally, I throw away leftover Klusons (I only kept these because they're new), but if you're short a set I'll keep you in mind the next time I see 6 in-lines.

 

[alterbridgefan]

Yup. They're a brand new set off a Gibson, so they're a 3x3 configuration. If you're thinking about your Jaguar/Jazzmaster, they won't work. But, I get necks through here all the time and sometimes tuner replacement is part of the job. Normally, I throw away leftover Klusons (I only kept these because they're new), but if you're short a set I'll keep you in mind the next time I see 6 in-lines.

Nope, I actually was thinking of my butchered 196X sg junior.

And please don't ever throw any klusons away ever again. Send them my way, I'm glad to pay for shipping.

 

[stubhead]

Just to stay off-topic for a bit

But, it occurs to me that if your fingers aren't touching the fretboard because the frets are so tall, what difference does it make how far below the strings the fretboard is?

Put it this way: if it didn't do anything, why do so many people hate them? :toothy12: I have heard (prolly rightfully) that if you sing while playing rhythm guitar, scallops will mess you up - straining for that high note and everything WARPS.... in fact they're probably not really suited for playing barre chords much at all - something you'll notice Ritchie Blackmore, Yngwie M. & John McLaughlin didn't bother with anyway. It's a big tent, there is no right or wrong. Except for Miley Cyrus and her clone Justin Beiber.*

*(To loft one even further afield, there is a comically-"badass" pube-metal band called "Black Veil Brides" getting some serious corpo backing. Fingerless gloves, smeary makeup, all that. In their YouTube comments it's almost impossible to get through three without a reference to that faggot Bieber and all his puny faggot rah-rah-rah... "I think for myself! I make my own rules, I'm a rebel!" So the corporations bestow Bieber upon us, and just to cover all bases they bestow the anti-Bieber on us too! (Included are all the rules & fashion tips to obey for correct non-conformity). There's no hope for us - not only are they lots more evil than us and smarter than us, they have all the money. Damn - blink twice and look what happens.)

(I wonder how often JustMiBiebrus gets his/her/itz headstock beveled?) :redflag:

 

[Cagey]

I don't know how many people hate scalloped 'boards; I certainly don't. I've been tempted to get some scalloping done after seeing what a lovely effect it has on some wood grains. But, feel-wise, I just don't really see the point when you have 6100-sized rebar available.

There's certainly good reason to do it for playing purposes if you don't want the fretboard in your way, which is why most of my necks have 6100s on them. Ritchie Blackmore, Yngwie Malmsteen and John McLaughlin probably started doing it back when they were just puppies because they didn't have the gauges of fretwire we can get these days. Remember, Ritchie is 68 years old, Yngwie is gonna be 50 next month, and Mr. McLaughlin is 71. These guys all had to slog over 2 miles to school through 4 feet of snow, uphill both ways. Plus, they had to suffer teensy-tiny microscopic frets on their guitars, since they used to be made of leftover pickup winding wire. It's no wonder they scalloped their necks. It was necessary.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Even with 6150s on a bass, no, the strings never touch the fretboard.  But as Stubby points out, your fingers do, even with big frets and a .105 gauge string.

 

[DustyCat]

Still no definitive answer, huh?

Okay I'll play along, make it 3 ounces pounds.  :cool01: