Replacement neck questions for fender strat: Modern tiltback? radius? locking tuners?

[FluorideInMyWater]

howdy folks.
i need a reaplacement neck b/c the original neck on my 1989 MIJ strat has dented frets. cheaper to get a new neck from warmoth!
I'm debating getting a modern-tiltback neck with a 10-16 compound radius, and putting on new turners.. I"m leaving my old neck intact while i practice fret replacement on cheap-@ss necks, since mine is now considered "vintage" and i don't want to mess it up.

i'm new to the guitar setup and repair world. i've been doing a lot of reading, but i'll probably use incorrect terms, so please feel free to correct me.

the new neck that i'm going to purchase will go on my old MIJ strat, but then i will most likely use it in a new custom build later on. the new guitar will have new modern parts....modern tremelo, possibly floyd rose, modern tuners, new pickups and wiring, etc. so i'm not going to be upgrading the tremelo for this particular project and thread. i'm going to use the existing stock '89 tremelo (see pics. btw this is a left-handed guitar)

so i'm considering a modern tiltback replacement neck because i read that it increases the quality of intonation (?). but i've heard that increases the load on the headstock. i know warmoth uses 2 pieces of wood to create thier gibson replacment necks so they are much stronger than the originals so are much less prone to cracking. i don't know if the strat modern tiltback uses 2 pieces like the gibson tiltback necks. so are the strat replacment modern tiltback necks as strong as a non-tilting neck......or reletively close?

the main reason i'm asking is because i plan to use the tremelo for more 80's type guitar solos.......so i'm going to do some dive-bombing on it and use it a bit more frequently for solos like VH, Rush, Pink Floyd....possibly some metal. i know that a floyd rose would be better suited, but again, that will be for my next project guitar. So will using my existing tremelo with a modern tiltback neck put extra stress on the new neck in a negative way? or would a regular non-tilted neck be better suited for this?

i also have asked this question in other forums that are slow boards so i don't get much feedback. one person did tell me to get locking tuners because it would help keep the guitar in tune better than non-locking ones. thier reasoning is that when you have coils around a regular tuners shaft (rod?...) each time you use the tremelo the string coils will loosen and then tighten back up and re-seat differently causing more frequent need to retune. is he correct or is that just silly? i also have read that some people experience problems with locking tuners breaking the thinner strings and the locking pins on the thinner ones (E & B). perhaps this was on cheaper locking tuners.

So the second question is: if i'm going with a moden-tiltback neck, should i or should i not use locking tuners (using the tremelo posted)

Finally, regarding the fretboard profile, i've heard about compound radius (10 - 16) necks that apparently play faster as you move up the neck into solos. if i'm going to be doing more soloing on this neck would this be a good choice or would it be better to just get a straight 12" radius (or other)? i'm planning on getting a C-shaped neck. not sure if a wizard would be better but that also might put me in jeopardy of snapping the headstock because the neck is thinner and therefore not as strong. (?)

Thanks in advance for you guidence!

 

[Spud]

When you get a new neck, intonation adjustment needed.

 

[TBurst Std]

I’ve never liked 3x3 headstocks on a Strat. (The Silver Sky is ugly to me). Why go tilt back? With staggered tuners and a proper cut nut, no trees needed.

How strong do you need the neck? You planning to pry open safes? Either normal or tilt back is enough.

Nothing Fender MIJ is every be considered vintage. Feel free to practice refretting on it.

PF? Gilmour used 6 pt and 2 pt Fender bridges for that (as did Beck). For your other stuff Floyd could be an option.

Locking tuners are great. Look to Schaller, Hipshot.

Go with the std compound radius. No need to spend more money.

While I’m not a fan by any means, you’re not going to snap the neck unless you’re prying open a safe with it. My profile preferences are 59 or boatneck.

Try this : make a C with your fretting hand. Keep your thumb 1/2 inch away from your fingers. Now spread your fingers. Observe.
Now spread you thumb 1 inch from your fingers. Now spread your fingers. Observe.

Bet you notice you can spread your fingers further when your thumb is further away from them.

 

[TBurst Std]

Also something to consider. The only reason all those 80s-90s shredders were playing thin necks is because that’s what the manufacturers were using on guitars that came with Floyd’s. Think EVH, he used a normal C shape, as did Mick Mars and Richie Sambora. Beck was using softened boatnecks. The jazz shedders of the 70s (IEiMeola etc- were using the equivalent of fat backs).

If you can find a video (lucky if you can, I saw it live) when extreme finger stretches were needed, all those people were taking their thumb off the back of the neck.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

I’ve never liked 3x3 headstocks on a Strat. (The Silver Sky is ugly to me). Why go tilt back? With staggered tuners and a proper cut nut, no trees needed.

How strong do you need the neck? You planning to pry open safes? Either normal or tilt back is enough.

Nothing Fender MIJ is every be considered vintage. Feel free to practice refretting on it.

PF? Gilmour used 6 pt and 2 pt Fender bridges for that (as did Beck). For your other stuff Floyd could be an option.

Locking tuners are great. Look to Schaller, Hipshot.

Go with the std compound radius. No need to spend more money.

While I’m not a fan by any means, you’re not going to snap the neck unless you’re prying open a safe with it. My profile preferences are 59 or boatneck.

Try this : make a C with your fretting hand. Keep your thumb 1/2 inch away from your fingers. Now spread your fingers. Observe.
Now spread you thumb 1 inch from your fingers. Now spread your fingers. Observe.

Bet you notice you can spread your fingers further when your thumb is further away from them.

so what kind of bridge do i have? i've never pulled it out. saw one like it on amazon listed as vintage fender....
i'm not looking at the 3x3 headstock. they make a fender strat replacement neck w/ modern tilt-back. so the tuners are inline...i don't think they need to be staggered.

i was looking at hipshot tuners but also Grover midsized, 6-inline rotomatic 305's

i wanted to know if they guys comment about whammy bars causing regular tuners to go out of tune more than locking ones due to "string-settling" each time you do a dive-bomb.

EVH used what warmoth profile called a "wolfgang" like a C but fatter on the topside and thinner on the bottom side

https://warmoth.com/guitar-neck-profiles.

so does a tilt-back provide better intonation or something else?

as far as the vintage thing. i saw my same guitar go thru auction on ebay, also a lefty, sell for $1200-something (was the winning bid) but i have seen them for a lot less. but mine is in excellent condition minus the frets. the $1200 one was metallic green but really worn. perhaps they are collectible b/c they only make a few years limited runs on them and then stop for 10 years and then do another run.......or that was the way in the 80's and 90's. so collectibility? that was just what i was told.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

When you get a new neck, intonation adjustment needed.

yes, that i understand. but does a tilt-back provide a better sound? that was my impression.

i thought "intonation" was the correct word, but like i said, i'm new and just learning the terminology.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

I’ve never liked 3x3 headstocks on a Strat. (The Silver Sky is ugly to me). Why go tilt back? With staggered tuners and a proper cut nut, no trees needed.

How strong do you need the neck? You planning to pry open safes? Either normal or tilt back is enough.

Nothing Fender MIJ is every be considered vintage. Feel free to practice refretting on it.

PF? Gilmour used 6 pt and 2 pt Fender bridges for that (as did Beck). For your other stuff Floyd could be an option.

Locking tuners are great. Look to Schaller, Hipshot.

Go with the std compound radius. No need to spend more money.

While I’m not a fan by any means, you’re not going to snap the neck unless you’re prying open a safe with it. My profile preferences are 59 or boatneck.

Try this : make a C with your fretting hand. Keep your thumb 1/2 inch away from your fingers. Now spread your fingers. Observe.
Now spread you thumb 1 inch from your fingers. Now spread your fingers. Observe.

Bet you notice you can spread your fingers further when your thumb is further away from them.

Nuno Bettencourt apparently plays a warmoth guitar. i don't know if that was the first incarnation of his washburn N4. it says they are grover 18:1 but doesn't say if they are rotomatics or locking tuners.

 

[TBurst Std]

What does it matter? A high quality locking tuner (like Hipshot or Schaller) won’t present the problem you put forth.

 

[stratamania]

yes, that i understand. but does a tilt-back provide a better sound? that was my impression.

i thought "intonation" was the correct word, but like i said, i'm new and just learning the terminology.

No, a tilt back does not produce a better sound than a properly set up guitar with a straight headstock. If you want tuning stability with a none locking nut and tremolo, a straight headstock is a better option.

Intonation means how in tune up and down a neck the guitar plays. It is to do with accuracy of pitch. The picture of the tremolo you posted with all the saddles in a straight line is unlikely to be intonated correctly as a properly intonated guitar has a slant pattern more like this.



Fender Stratocaster tremolo bridge
Zzerox at English Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0>, via Wikimedia Commons

A compound radius does not play faster in itself, the player does that, and it may contribute to that, though it does make it less likely for bends to choke out the higher up the neck you go. Flatter or compound radii tend to be preferred by technical players, however Malmsteen uses a 9.5" straight radius.

https://warmoth.com/guitar-neck-fretboard-radius

 

[rauchman]

No, a tilt back does not produce a better sound than a properly set up guitar with a straight headstock. If you want tuning stability with a none locking nut and tremolo, a straight headstock is a better option.

I[/URL]

Very curious about this. How is a straight headstock a better option for tuning stability?

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

No, a tilt back does not produce a better sound than a properly set up guitar with a straight headstock. If you want tuning stability with a none locking nut and tremolo, a straight headstock is a better option.

Intonation means how in tune up and down a neck the guitar plays. It is to do with accuracy of pitch. The picture of the tremolo you posted with all the saddles in a straight line is unlikely to be intonated correctly as a properly intonated guitar has a slant pattern more like this.



Fender Stratocaster tremolo bridge
Zzerox at English Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0>, via Wikimedia Commons

A compound radius does not play faster in itself, the player does that, and it may contribute to that, though it does make it less likely for bends to choke out the higher up the neck you go. Flatter or compound radii tend to be preferred by technical players, however Malmsteen uses a 9.5" straight radius.

https://warmoth.com/guitar-neck-fretboard-radius

So what benefit does a tilt-back give you? i'm getting confused on the subject. better tuning?

Yes, my tremelo is as it was from the factory. never had it set-up. never knew it needed to be set-up. i've just recently learned that guitars from the factory are not ajusted at all.....just slap on the parts and ship. reading different forums about replacing the neck got me reading about guitar setups in details and i was surprised. granted i haven't played this guitar in 10 years, but when i got it in '89 it sounded fine to me through a small squire practice amp. didn't know i needed to adjust everything on the guitar to make it sound correct........or better.

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

What does it matter? A high quality locking tuner (like Hipshot or Schaller) won’t present the problem you put forth.

what benefit does a locking tuner actually give you over a standard tuner, besides making the headstock look "prettier" and cleaner, aesthetically?

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

Very curious about this. How is a straight headstock a better option for tuning stability?

i'm curious as well. i'm going to email the warmoth rep who i've been asking question to. i'm sure he can provide the answer. i'll post his comments.

 

[aarontunes]

So what benefit does a tilt-back give you? i'm getting confused on the subject. better tuning?

A tiltback headstock doesn't inherently have any advantages over a straight neck. It's simply the "original" way people came up with for building a instrument neck, and it's more closely linked to traditional "pegheads" like those found on violins and violas, and classical guitars.

The tiltback headstock idea was around for centuries before Leo Fender went looking for ways to make guitars really fast and cheap.

Nowadays either way is fine. There can be minor advantages one way or the other depending on the kind of guitar you're building and how you intend to use it, but it's not like there is a right or wrong choice.

 

[aarontunes]

what benefit does a locking tuner actually give you over a standard tuner, besides making the headstock look "prettier" and cleaner, aesthetically?

The only advantage I've found with locking tuners is that they make string changes easier and quicker....and that's a really nice advantage!

 

[aarontunes]

Very curious about this. How is a straight headstock a better option for tuning stability?

i'm curious as well.

I think the theory is that the less friction there are along the string's length the less chance there is for tuning issues, and a tiltback headstock has greater friction across the nut that a straight one.

Of course, for this to (maybe) be true you have to eschew string trees completely on a straight headstock, and I have yet to encounter one that I didn't think benefitted from them, staggered locking tuners included.

On the flip side, a tiltback headstock never requires string trees.

IME your best bet for stable tremolo bridge tuning without a locking nut is a tilt back headstock design that offers perfectly straight string pull all the way to the tuners. You know....like the Meadowhawk.

Everybody's experience with this is gonna be different. There are many solutions that can lead to a good outcome for a particular player.

 

[stratamania]

So what benefit does a tilt-back give you? i'm getting confused on the subject. better tuning?

None, really it is just a different construction method. See below.

Very curious about this. How is a straight headstock a better option for tuning stability?

See below.

I think the theory is that the less friction there are along the string's length the less chance there is for tuning issues, and a tiltback headstock has greater friction across the nut that a straight one.

With a none locking tremolo system, the point is to reduce all points of friction as much as possible. Effectively, anywhere that a string could not return to the same place after tremolo use will change its pitch. This is factual due to physics.
See below.

Of course, for this to (maybe) be true you have to eschew string trees completely on a straight headstock, and I have yet to encounter one that I didn't think benefitted from them, staggered locking tuners included.

Indeed, the point also requires the elimination of string trees, as they introduce additional points of friction and changes of angle to the strings. If a string tree is used, it would have to be well lubricated.

A very well-cut nut and set up guitar is needed also. If the nut is not correct, it can also produce friction, or cause citar like sounds, and various other non desired elements such as the break point of the string not being at the leading edge and throwing intonation out.

All string trees do is put an additional break angle on the string, equivalent or similar to what a tilt back headstock gives. This can hide the effects of a badly cut nut and is a large part of why factories use them. But they do nothing to help the tuning stability with a none locking system.

 

[rauchman]

I think the theory is that the less friction there are along the string's length the less chance there is for tuning issues, and a tiltback headstock has greater friction across the nut that a straight one.

Of course, for this to (maybe) be true you have to eschew string trees completely on a straight headstock, and I have yet to encounter one that I didn't think benefitted from them, staggered locking tuners included.

On the flip side, a tiltback headstock never requires string trees.

IME your best bet for stable tremolo bridge tuning without a locking nut is a tilt back headstock design that offers perfectly straight string pull all the way to the tuners. You know....like the Meadowhawk.

Everybody's experience with this is gonna be different. There are many solutions that can lead to a good outcome for a particular player.

Interesting. So it's the nut surface, that I guess is wider for a tiltback setup. More surface area contact, causing more friction?

Anyone know if there are tiltback style nuts out there that have less surface area than traditional nuts?

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

I think the theory is that the less friction there are along the string's length the less chance there is for tuning issues, and a tiltback headstock has greater friction across the nut that a straight one.

Of course, for this to (maybe) be true you have to eschew string trees completely on a straight headstock, and I have yet to encounter one that I didn't think benefitted from them, staggered locking tuners included.

On the flip side, a tiltback headstock never requires string trees.

IME your best bet for stable tremolo bridge tuning without a locking nut is a tilt back headstock design that offers perfectly straight string pull all the way to the tuners. You know....like the Meadowhawk.

Everybody's experience with this is gonna be different. There are many solutions that can lead to a good outcome for a particular player.

that seems to make sense....i think.
with a tilt-back your only stress point (besides the bridge & tuners) is going to be at the nut. but with a straight-back, as you mentioned, you have the additional stress points on the string-trees.

i don't understand though why you don't need string trees on a tilt-back but are necessary on a straight neck. if the nut is your point of resistance/stress between the bridge and tuners they why are the string tress necessary.......?
actually did some pondering.........like you said, a straight back has much less tension at the nut than a tilt-back. i'm guessing it's probable that the tilt-back distributes the tension between the nut and the tuners more evenly that a standard flat neck, and the string are there to try to "more-evenly" distribute the tension from the nut to the tuners. but because of the tilt-back angle you inherently distribute the tension/load more evenly which make it less susceptible to going out of tune quicker. so flat-head inherently distribute the tension/load "un-evenly" by design, hence the need for the string trees, which sort of compensate but they just add additional string tension points that screw with the entire string and create an environment of multiple points of failure, rather just the 1 point (the nut) on the tilt-back.

does that sound about right?

None, really it is just a different construction method. See below.



See below.

With a none locking tremolo system, the point is to reduce all points of friction as much as possible. Effectively, anywhere that a string could not return to the same place after tremolo use will change its pitch. This is factual due to physics.
See below.


Indeed, the point also requires the elimination of string trees, as they introduce additional points of friction and changes of angle to the strings. If a string tree is used, it would have to be well lubricated.

A very well-cut nut and set up guitar is needed also. If the nut is not correct, it can also produce friction, or cause citar like sounds, and various other non desired elements such as the break point of the string not being at the leading edge and throwing intonation out.

All string trees do is put an additional break angle on the string, equivalent or similar to what a tilt back headstock gives. This can hide the effects of a badly cut nut and is a large part of why factories use them. But they do nothing to help the tuning stability with a none locking system.

So you're talking about a non-locking tremelo system........which i'm assuming i don't have.
but you said there was no benefits to a tilt-back headstock. seems by what you said that the benefit is reducing the # of friction points, which according to what you said is a good thing.

would non-locking turners be considered stress points due to the fact that the strings loosen and re-seat on the post whenever you use the whammy bar?

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

Interesting. So it's the nut surface, that I guess is wider for a tiltback setup. More surface area contact, causing more friction?

Anyone know if there are tiltback style nuts out there that have less surface area than traditional nuts?

email thier sales rep.... i would ask but i've already worn out my welcome with all the questions i've asked.....LOL.
sales@warmoth.com,
they will respond the same day.