Real amps vs fake amps

[Cagey]

More often than not, even the snobbiest of tone purists can't tell the difference between most modellers and the real thing on a recording, which pisses them off even more because their bovine exhaust has been called.

That's true of many products, actually.

I'll never forget (although it's a trivial thing) how my grandmother used to badmouth Kenmore washer/dryer pairs when my mother got hers (You'll be sorry!), she being convinced somewhere along the line that Whirlpool units were The Thing To Have. My father was the same way, re: Dodge vs. Plymouth. Then, when I started spending time in the factories where those items were made and found out they're identical except for some stickers and trimwork, it was like, WTF? Kenmores are actually Whirlpools? Dodges are actually Plymouths and vice-versa? Lotsa stuff like that. I mean, how could anybody think there are 23 manufacturers of microwave ovens, or TVs? That would be insane.

I can't count how many articles I've read where Monster Cables have been compared to the cheapest junk extant in blind taste tests and found wanting. In one, they even ranked even with clothes hanger wire. In other words, nothing special whatsoever despite being overpriced by several hundred percent.

I say all that to say this: people like to badmouth lawyers as the lowest of the low, but they're a million miles off. It's marketing weenies you have to watch real close. Those ass holes will lie, cheat and steal to create demand. At least lawyers work with rules. They may be bad rules, but they exist and they follow them. Marketing weenies are blackhearts. You can never trust what they say.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Most lawyers lie even when they fart. :tard:

 

[Cagey]

Most lawyers lie even when they fart. :tard:

That hasn't been my experience at all, but I understand why many people think they do. It's the same with most politicians. They don't lie; they use language effectively. Presentation is everything for the vast majority of people, so they hear what they want to hear rather than what's actually being said. It seems tricky and underhanded, but if you listen carefully to what they say you don't get confused or disappointed. 

 

[stubhead]

I work around lawyers on a regular basis, and the ones I see are bo-ring... estates, taxes, it's all about rules. And on the other hand, at one point I was sort-of operating a home for divorcing line cooks and chefs, and I couldn't believe some of the snaky things divorce lawyers would get up to, especially if there were kids. Like, they'd tell you call up you soon-to-be-ex, say "We could just talk this out away from all these damn lawyers..."  Theoretically, you'd get together at a restaurant or bar, talking about the good times, keep feeding them drinks, say "well too bad, but we just gotta"... and as soon as they leave, call the police and tell them you just about got run down by a crazy drunk driving a blue Toyota, plate number so-and-so heading east on route so-and-so.... nothing like a DUI (and enforced rehab stay) to change the playing field. The poor kids become weapons....

So it runs to all extremes. Lawyers work with an extremely specific set of meanings for specific terminology, and they may have been one of the earliest "beneficiaries" of the idea that you can make up a bunch of words and terms for ordinary common-sense ideas, and then use your new private language to appear wise... and charge for it. But academics do the same thing, so do police, office "politicians", real politicians, really anyone you cede authority to without a translation guide. Many things are really pretty simple if you can just figure out what the heck anybody is really talking about. "Parameters" & "algorithms"....  :help:

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Sure, but remember when the thread really got derailed?

I did another clip on my Kemper. For some reason it sounds better when played deafeningly loud. Since I recorded it I've been tweaking the tone a bit more. It's so easy and fun - it has knobs! They've been pretty clever about which things they give you dedicated knobs for, and then when you do need to edit something else you still get four physical knobs you can use to set parameters. I don't think I've used an up/down button to set anything yet.

https://soundcloud.com/richard-irons/time-solo-kemper

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I apologize for the derailment.
Now, back on topic.

 

[stratamania]

It sounds better when loud... Time for the Fletcher Munson curve to enter the discussion.

This is often why with modellers, that someone tweaks at bedroom levels and all sounds great, but then at a rehearsal or gig what happened ? Or the other way around...

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Fletcher-Munson_curve

 

[drewski]

I did have an interesting experience last weekend at a local open mic......

My rig is a solid state 3 channel Crate with my pedal board. I have a Pod2 on a looper and I use that for some of the built in effects so I don't need 150 stomp boxes (chorus, rotary, flanger).  But when we went down to the open mic they had some old Ampeg there that I played thru....I also used my Ibanez tube screamer.

What I found interesting/different was how the amp responded to where I set the volume knob on my guitar. I don't seem to get that kind of response thru the crate. Leave it on 10, click the channel you want.

now, im perfectly happy with my amp, the sound, the 3 channel operation, the consistency, but I did find the distinction interesting.  :sign13:

 

[stratamania]

Being able to roll back the volume on the guitar to get the amp to clean up, is a good old school thing to do with valve or tube amps, now when I found I could get the Axe FX to respond in a similar way I was very pleasantly surprised. I haven't tried this on a Kemper so can't comment.

I like riding the volume control, but versatility of channel switching etc is a cool addition.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

If you go back a page or two I posted a clip of rolling back the volume on a Kemper. Short version: yeah it works.

 

[stratamania]

Ok will revisit the clips. I am sure the Kemper can do the volume thing also.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Now I have a few minutes I can go back and get you the link. Here it is:

http://soundcloud.com/richard-irons/first-kemper-recording

 

[stratamania]

Now I have a few minutes I can go back and get you the link. Here it is:

http://soundcloud.com/richard-irons/first-kemper-recording

Thanks, yes that shows it cleans up well.

 

[stubhead]

There was definitely a transition from an older or at least "freer" idea of stomping on things to see what happened, and the newer idea of having all your parts locked-in with effects & tones for each section of the songs - on a programmed pedalboard, yet. As bar bands got better at re-creating "classic" arrangements (often originally caused by stoned hippies stomping around) it became "normal", then required, to be able to repeat stuff.... :laughing7: And it has always depended on the style of the music, the relative desire for "professionalism" and most important - who's in charge! :toothy12: You weren't likely to see Robert Plant makes faces if that Page guy decided to take another solo through the changes on "Since I've Been Loving You" and you're not likely to see Justin Bieber's guitarist take off on a 20-minute free-jazz excursion. Not twice, for sure.

It's a defining question, with widely-variant answers. The Eagles were once made fun of for not "jamming" on stage, then sort-of all of a sudden, other bands were criticized for playing their own songs "wrong?" That's not how the solo "goes", which would surprise the hell out of Neil Young & Jerry Garcia.... I like surprises but I like Bach too, and you're not supposed to uncork too many surprises there. Bach loved to improvise, but you can't.

And, to somewhat stay on (ta-da) track, when I first messed with modelers I used to think it was dumb that I had to choose a "Twin Reverb" or "JCM800" as a starting point, but dang there are a lot of variables. I can see how if you got deep into the Axe-Fx or the wide-open software "amp" creation stuff - and pure sound-generation synthesis stuff gets crazy fast - it could take a really, really, really long time to play a couple of notes just absolutely perfect.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I always loved interviews with Marty Friedman about how he got the tone he had for Megadeth's Rust in Peace album.  He more or less said, the studio guys got it to sound good, and I played the guitar.  As much as the modeling things have changed the number of variables, nitpicky or not, somethings don't change.  Now you'll have guys who are just good at getting, "the sound," out of a modeler.  And the rest of us.
Patrick

 

[Great Ape]

Well, ''real'' & ''fake'' are your terms, not mine, but I do know that LIVE, at club gig volume, there jest ain't nuffin' like a 15-20 watt tube amp if ''real'' is what you want! I hear 'em both all the time, and in that environment at least, ''fake'' is the right terminology for a solid state/modeler...that said, I also freely admit to an undeniable tube amp bias (if you'll pardon the term :toothy11. But that's MY story, an' I'm stickin' to it...

 

[Cagey]

Except that what you hear on stage is not what the audience hears. They're hearing a your amp through a mic, an EQd mixer, a solid state amp and some full-range speakers. In fact, you could go so far as to say what you hear on stage isn't real, because there's a monitor feeding you as well as your amp, which has other signal mixed into it. Not to mention the bleed from the other players reinforcing what you're doing.

 

[stubhead]

Well hell, if you wanna go all Wittgensteiny-esque, the amount of any kind of signals available to our tiny li'l bonebuckets, as filtered through our five tiny, puny little worthless senses (yes an owl can see a mouse in the dark from 100 yards up, a dog can hear you fart all the way across the house and if you go spearfishing in the ocean it's not a real good idea to carry a bag of bloody twitching fishies too close to the family or any other jewels because some people* can smell really, really well underwater) is really pathetic. We are constantly fabricating, hallucinating, confabulating the stories we tell ourselves about what's happening. The statement "we create our own reality" was once actually applied to have some meaning here, though of course it's now been adopted, corrupted and perverted by the kind of walnuttoes who'll say any damn stupid crap just to try and trick you into continuing to listen to their blather just to see if they're ever going to bail themselves out of the Dunce's Corner (just follow the watch, you are getting very sleepy....), And when they don't and they can't and their "received higher wisdom" turn out to be same old crap - shiny new words - SEND MONEY!!!    and they'll offer to <icecream> TRANSLATE it for you!

*(YA doodlegritz, don't tell ME tell the SHARK...)

I take Paypal.

(Do you remember a few years back during more Diamond Dave Dramacrap Van Halen went out with a recording of the keyboard lick of "Panama" on a computer, and the hard drive played it back at the wrong speed which turned out to be some totally just-WRONG unimprovise-able unsavable key and it was a total trainwreck? Some people booed, fine - but a lot more people cheered anyway.... :icon_scratch: ??? :icon_thumright: :headbang: Whoo! Van Halen! WHOO!!!

 

[Great Ape]

Except that what you hear on stage is not what the audience hears. They're hearing a your amp through a mic, an EQd mixer, a solid state amp and some full-range speakers. In fact, you could go so far as to say what you hear on stage isn't real, because there's a monitor feeding you as well as your amp, which has other signal mixed into it. Not to mention the bleed from the other players reinforcing what you're doing.

I didn't say anything about ''on stage''--I actually meant sitting out in the 'audience' in small clubs, where the on-stage monitors are mostly for vocal reference only, and the guitar and bass amps are not mic'd...I'm not tryin' to declare anything definitive, Kevin, just stating a personal preference based on my own admittedly biased ears. I play and frequent blues clubs/gigs, so, really, would ya expect me to be a modeling fan? (If you PROMISE not to tell anyone, I will admit that I have actually used a POD on occasion in the studio--sometimes it just plain WORKS!). 

 

[Cagey]

You don't need to be ashamed of liking a POD tone. They're not faithful modellers, but that doesn't mean they sound bad. They're just different. I've gotten tones I liked out of those and similar units, but I'd never have said they're clones of any hardware-based amp. Still, practical for some things. The KPA and Axe Fx are entirely different beasts, though. Comparing what most people think of when you say "modeller" to one of those units is like comparing a Piper Cub to an F-22 Raptor.