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Questions on replicating a "Vintage Tone"

Gilgamesh

Junior Member
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So I have a new project on the planning board but I just wanted to run the specs by someone to make as a bit of a sanity check.

Since I've found myself playing a lot of classic rock / southern rock [example: Blue Oyster Cult, Molly Hatchet, ZZ Top, Heart, etc], I'm looking to try and replicate that sort of tone without dropping big money on a Gibson LP Studio.

To all the gurus out there, will these specs get me to this goal?
  • Body Style: Jazzmaster - angled pocket [like the style and fret access]
  • Wood: Mahogany w/ Zebrawood Laminate
  • Bridge: Gotoh TOM & Stop tail
  • Pickups: Bare Knuckle - Mule set
  • Finish: Natural Clear Gloss

  • Neck Style: Strat conversion 24.75
  • Wood: Mahogany w/ Kingwood fretboard
  • Frets: 6150 Stainless Steel
  • Nut: Bone [preferred]
  • Finish: Natural Clear Gloss
 
The parts you listed will build you a very nice guitar but!! I think a bigger factor in replicating the tones of the bands you mentioned is going to be found in using the correct amp. I would take a killer amp and a average guitar over a killer guitar and a crappy amp every time.

I'm sorry that does not answer your specific question but if you can find someone with a great vintage Tweed Fender, Marshall, or Hiwatt amp and plug into one of those you will immediately hear the tones you are asking about.




 
Here's what you need to get that Billy Gibbons tone:

Gibbons_rack_Rhythmeen_1996_GP.jpg
 
Meaning, specifically, the small tweed amp in the lower left hand corner of that photo -- the rest is just there to put folks off the scent and to sell merchandise through endorsements.
 
I agree with Tonar, and the rest here with the comments about the amp, but after the amp, the pickups are what you want to focus on next.  BKP make very nice pickups, but if you can find someone that has a guitar with them, try it first.  It is not that the manufacturer is has a problem, but I personally have surprised myself several times with what I thought I wanted versus what worked the best.  Also, you might find someone more affordable than BKP that is more focused on the sound you are after.  Ken at Roadhouse Pickups was able to set me up with something that I preferred, and the price was right.
Patrick

 
When I first saw ZZ Top, they were playing bars in Dallas for $1.00 cover in 1971. Billy was playing through a Blackface Super Reverb and had the same tone....
 
Excellent point on the amp, you have me there. As I've mostly been roped into playing Hard Rock and Grunge, there is a lot of overdrive and distortion. I suppose I could wander around for a decent amp [suggestion welcome!]

I suppose my question was mostly for making sure I'm going about the construction [read: Wood min/maxing] and making sure what I had planned would work well together. Since my other two guitars are high output [EMG 85/81, the other BKP Cold Sweet / Aftermath], I was looking to build something that doesn't distort at the drop of a hat.


Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
Per the original post, an angled neck pocket won't do anything for fret access.
I might have worded that wrong, I meant the body style itself. To your point the 1-3 degrees wont matter in the slightest.
 
I also agree with the amp suggestion, however.....

For me the old idea that tone starts in your left hand, is something I shall believe in for as long as I'm playing. Give any great player like Clapton or Billy or Kenny Wayne a squier and a hot rod deluxe and they can sound as vintage as it can get. Vice versa for a below average player.

Point is, of course try and get the best you can afford in amp and guitar but also invest more and more in your playing. :-)
 
Maka491 said:
I also agree with the amp suggestion, however.....

For me the old idea that tone starts in your left hand, is something I shall believe in for as long as I'm playing. Give any great player like Clapton or Billy or Kenny Wayne a squier and a hot rod deluxe and they can sound as vintage as it can get. Vice versa for a below average player.

Point is, of course try and get the best you can afford in amp and guitar but also invest more and more in your playing. :-)

True enough. Sadly not Clapton good but working on it.

Well, since it seems that my initial question can be solved with a change of amp; I'll can pose another.

What does everyone think of the specs of the guitar? I'm still up in the air about the BKP Mules but everything else is pretty solid.
 
Go for a chambered body to get a little more weight, ironically, to your tone; it'll help with the flat top body and, I'm assuming, top routing. Even if the guitar is rear-routed, having the body chambered will help nail that typical thick-mahogany-bodied tone.

Consider a rosewood neck, or at least a rosewood fretboard. Bolt-ons are inherently a little brighter than set necks, especially for the neck pickup, and having the neck made of such warm woods will help a lot. My experience with Warmoth's conversion necks is that the 'pro' conversion, with its hefty truss rod, brings through the highs very clearly and a super-warm wood like rosewood will help curb that a little.

Ditch the Bare Knuckles. Aside from being ridiculously overpriced (there's a hundred and one other boutique pickup makers that do the same—if not better—job for less), they're going to be too bright. You don't get the thick, iconic PAF tone by putting PAF-copies in a flat-top, bolt-on guitar; you need to go for pickups that are wound even thicker. You could of course get somethind wound specifically for you by any number of boutique winders, or even the Seymour Duncan Custom Shop (having dealt with them myself recently, for a similar tone in a similar guitar, I can attest to their ability to deliver), but for less bank-murdering options, try DiMarzio, the kings of getting thicker tone out of thin guitars. Try the bridge version of their PAF copy as a neck pickup, and for the bridge try an Air Norton, or if you don't mind bumping up the output a little (though it's still a barely-hot pickup), a Breed Neck. Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates, or '59s with A2 magnets, are also good options that I've had good experience with in the quest for classic rock tone in inherently modern-sounding builds.

I'd also suggest you lose the stainless steel frets and the bone nut, as regular fret wire and a graphite compound nut will give you a smoother tone. These do of course have a much bigger impact on how the guitar plays, though, so I wouldn't consider changing them a priority.

One thing that is easily overlooked is the pot value. Most people just go for 500k for humbucker and P-90s and 250k for Fender-style single coils, but Gibson themselves use a mixture of 300k and 500k for warm guitars and just 300k pots for brighter guitars. Sticking 300k or even 250k pots in PRSs is also a very popular mod to get a more 'vintage' tone out of the slightly more modern design. I would recommend you go for a 300k volume pot, at least, with a 500k tone.

Lastly, I'd suggest a tiltback neck. The break angle over the nut is important for those classic rock and heavy blues-based tones, especially on the plain strings. String retainers can help on a straight headstock, but a tiltback makes it easier and more consistent; some people would say the 3x3 tuner layout is important too, though this is a needless step too far, in my opinion.


... and if in doubt, get an EQ pedal and just pump the mids up. Always a nice, quick-n-dirty fix :icon_thumright:
 
I generally play stuff along the same lines as you and have a set of BK Mules in the guitar shown below and love them.
DSC_0001-2.jpg

They have a nice bluesy sound and are everything BK said they would be. However, I also own various other BK sets and find that the hotter sets like Nailbombs and Blackhawks actually fit better to the music I'm doing. They just seem to give me a wider range of tones to select from. I agree with Patrick from Davis's comment on getting surprised by what I thought I wanted versus what worked best (though I haven't tried Roadhouse pups yet) and suggest you play any pickups first if you can before dumping money into them. I agree with a lot of what Ace Flibble said, except the part about the BKs. I own various DiMarzios and Seymour Duncans and vintage PAFs, but the BKs (and Roadhouses I've heard) seem to my ears to offer a wider range of sound options from their pickups, but they are expensive!

As for the build specs, it sounds like a beautiful guitar. I personally prefer to avoid finishing the neck, first because I like the feel of raw necks, and second because I feel the heavy gloss finishes deaden the guitars tone. I can't prove that, but my experience tells me it is true, particularly for warmer sounding necks. That's what led me to the Black Korina body and Wenge / Ebony neck above and like I said, "I love it!". So, if I were doing your guitar I would probably swap the mahogany neck for Wenge or Pau Ferro or something else you can play raw.

Also, I would definitely go with a chambered body if you can and stainless frets. And I would also change the bridge to a Gotoh 510 versus the TOM. Again, I can't prove it, but I am convinced that the Gotoh delivers better tone than the TOM. But, other that that it seems like a really nice build!  :toothy12:

At the end of the day tone is more about you, then the amp, and then the guitar, so go with something your sure you will enjoy playing! Looking forward to see how this turns out! :guitarplayer2:
 
Ddbltrbl said:
And I would also change the bridge to a Gotoh 510 versus the TOM.
*Note* Gotoh 510 ..... Best used on carved top bodies thou.
http://www.warmoth.com/Gotoh-510-Stud-Mount-Bridge-Chrome-P554C706.aspx
As the OP is using a Jazzmaster body.

BTW .... Great looking guitar 'Ddbltrbl'  :guitarplayer2:
 
Updown said:
Ddbltrbl said:
And I would also change the bridge to a Gotoh 510 versus the TOM.
*Note* Gotoh 510 ..... Best used on carved top bodies thou.
http://www.warmoth.com/Gotoh-510-Stud-Mount-Bridge-Chrome-P554C706.aspx
As the OP is using a Jazzmaster body.

BTW .... Great looking guitar 'Ddbltrbl'  :guitarplayer2:

Thanks for catching that Updown, I wasn't paying attention again!  :doh:
 
What sounds good in a chunky carved top body and a wenge(?) neck isn't going to be what sounds good in a flattop. In fact, especially in the case of scatterwound pickups, like Bare Knuckles.
 
Been looking more into the pickup situation, Pearly Gates did come to mind also but to me, they have the same issue as BKP Riff Raff, really nice for bright rock tones but deviate from that and there will be issues. I very well could be wrong [more often than not I am], I've just had little experience with them.
I liked the Mules because of the versatility. Starting off with a clean sound that I can change at the pedal / amp were needed.

I also thought about the chambered body at first but I'm worried the tuners [Schaller locking] would cause it to neck dive. Used schaller tuners on every guitar build I've done and love the heck out of them. However, they are like strapping a small car to your headstock.  :-\
That said, unless I'm beating the strings with a hammer they don't go out of tune....
 
Hi Greg,

This thread reminds me to ask:  What's your recipe for getting a good tone out of a Fender amp again?  I seem to recall you saying something like:
1 - turn the treble off
2 - turn up the bass and mid all the way
3 - set the volume to the breakup you want
4 - start turning up the treble until you get something you want.

Is that right?
 
There have been lots of pickups noted, and I like some and not others.  I have a set of BKP Nailbombs, and they are very nice pickups.  However, Because they come from England and are kinda custom, the price is rather absurd for me.  I have found that the smaller custom winders will make you something very similar for a lot less.  Ken from Roadhouse did this for me when I got a set of seven string pickups.  The bridge is very similar to the nailbomb, but it has the character and depth that has been noted from Ken's pickups.  The neck pickup is just outstanding with the clarity of note selection, while still having the beef and slank of a neck pickup.  My long winded point is, for the money, you can get something that is designed for what you have in mind, for less money than a SD pickup, if you look.

Stainless Frets have no effect on the brightness of the guitar as far as I am concerned.  I have lots of both styles.  The Stainless don't wear anywhere like the nickle brass, but other than that, they are pretty close.  They are a bit slicker on bends, but if you let your strings crud up a bit, you won't notice it much.

The Bone nut I have is very nice, it adds clarity, but without a treble boost.  It helps with hearing all the strings rather than a mix of all the strings.  I hope that makes sense.

For the more gibson-y sound the 24 3/4" neck does help out with that chunkiness that they have.  The 25.5" scale adds more twang, to my ears.  I have bigger hands, and like the twang sound, so I tend to stick with the longer scale.

Finally, P90's through a Fender amp is a great way to get the classic rock vibe.  I like lower wattage old amps because with the p90's they have that wrong side of the tracks sound.
Patrick

 
If you're going for a Gibson type sound with this guitar get the chambered body.  I have a chambered strat with locking tuners and nut, and there's no neck dive. I doubt you'd get neck dive with the larger Jazzmaster body. (Of course my neck is a standard thin with wenge). Anyway, I have a chambered and solid body mahogny strat. The chambered one sounds WAY closer to a Gibson than the solid one, which seems to be what you're going for.
 
I call the vintage sound, the good sound, medium to low output pickups.  The mojo of the period seems to be the outlier or oddball that was accidentally over or under wound.  I maintain vintage mojo is just loose tolerances; the accidents that aren't what they're supposed to be.  Abigail Ybarra, her name is synonymous with vintage Strat mojo, and I can't figure out if she was the only one of Leo's employees that could or couldn't wind a pickup to spec.

I like the DiMarzio site because their endorsees aren't secretive about what their using (unless they really are).  You know who's using what, what it sounds like, then the site has the bass, mids, and treble, as well as output, all listed.  It makes it easy to pinpoint what you like or don't like, what you'd tweak.  It much easier than reading a paragraph with all the bullet points of warm, tone, rich, harmonic overtones, etc., etc.

 
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