Passive humbuckers for high gain: high or low output? Thoughts?

[thebutcher85]

so there are SO many boutique pickup makers out there, and everyone is making some sort of super-hot rock/metal pickup. I've tried lots (Dimarzio, Duncans, Bareknuckle, RioGrande, and a bunch more) and I've found that I actually like a bit of a lower output (10-12K) humbucker in the bridge for high-gain rock/metal stuff. I'm getting a lot of gain already from my amps and a few OD pedals I use, so I've found that I really don't like hotter pickups that much anymore. I play a lot of hard rock/metal/hardcore/old school metal stuff, and for ME, less-hot humbuggies seem like the way to go...

thoughts? opinions? experiences?

 

[Strat Avenger]

thoughts? opinions? experiences?

Yep...

 

[line6man]

I don't understand the appeal of overwound pickups and having a high output. :dontknow:

The advantages of improved headroom a lower noisefloor with high output pickups are negated by the fact that too much wire shifts the resonant frequency downward and gives you a terrible sound. If you want a high output, turn up the gain on whatever gain stage you play through.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Joey, I think in this case theory an practice don't always work the same.  You are always walking on a line of compromise with pickups but...  The really really high gain pickups I have tried I am not to keen on, but...  I have tried Bare Knuckle, Bill Lawrence, and Ken made me some custom Roadhouse pickups.  As you drop the gain on the pick ups, the highs get more present, as you increase the gain, and the highs get rolled off.  The gain of the pickup effects how the amp behaves, and it easier for me to control while playing than pedals or things of that nature.  Whack the strings and it growls, play with touch and sings.  And I would not say that the pickups I have sound terrible.  Obviously it is up for interpretation, but after playing with the gain knobs on the amps, boost pedals, overdrive pedals, distortion pedals, and just plain ole high output pickups, I'll take the high output pickups for ease of use, versatility, and sound. 

I will also say, the pickup and your style/sound have to be the correct mix because the personalities of pickups are quite varied.  Nevermind trying to capture the number of playing styles...  If I wanted to get a new set I'd suggest finding a couple of artist and songs and talking to Troubled Treble about a set.  He does wonders over there at Roadhouse Pickups.  If I don't have a special need, like a WRHB pickup or a TV Jones model, Ken is the way to go.
Patrick

 

[swarfrat]

A technical nit, but it always bugs me when people talk about pickups being 'high gain'. Unless they're active, the pickups are simply 'high output'. Gain by definition has to come from an amplifier stage somewhere. Pedal, Amp, preamp.

 

[line6man]

A technical nit, but it always bugs me when people talk about pickups being 'high gain'. Unless they're active, the pickups are simply 'high output'. Gain by definition has to come from an amplifier stage somewhere. Pedal, Amp, preamp.

I've always taken "high gain" as a descriptor of the desired application, rather than an attribute of the pickups. "High gain pickups" obviously doesn't make much sense. "For high gain" is how I usually see the wording.

 

[pabloman]

Gain is the ratio of input and output so having a higher output pickup would increase the input to the amplifier thus creating higher gain. But there's a place for everything. Some are good some are bad.

 

[line6man]

Gain is the ratio of input and output so having a higher output pickup would increase the input to the amplifier thus creating higher gain. But there's a place for everything. Some are good some are bad.

The amp is irrelevant. The pickup does not gain energy from the string movement, it simply transduces it. You actually have energy losses in the real world.

 

[The Norwegian Guy]

If you want THE best...
Bare Knuckle Pickups -> Nailbomb humbuckers

 

[Patrick from Davis]

If you want THE best...
Bare Knuckle Pickups -> Nailbomb humbuckers

Ken made me one that sounds very similar, but better.  Also I didn't have to mortgage the homestead to afford it.
Patrick

 

[line6man]

Joey, I think in this case theory an practice don't always work the same.  You are always walking on a line of compromise with pickups but...  The really really high gain pickups I have tried I am not to keen on, but...  I have tried Bare Knuckle, Bill Lawrence, and Ken made me some custom Roadhouse pickups.  As you drop the gain on the pick ups, the highs get more present, as you increase the gain, and the highs get rolled off.  The gain of the pickup effects how the amp behaves, and it easier for me to control while playing than pedals or things of that nature.  Whack the strings and it growls, play with touch and sings.  And I would not say that the pickups I have sound terrible.  Obviously it is up for interpretation, but after playing with the gain knobs on the amps, boost pedals, overdrive pedals, distortion pedals, and just plain ole high output pickups, I'll take the high output pickups for ease of use, versatility, and sound.  

I will also say, the pickup and your style/sound have to be the correct mix because the personalities of pickups are quite varied.  Nevermind trying to capture the number of playing styles...  If I wanted to get a new set I'd suggest finding a couple of artist and songs and talking to Troubled Treble about a set.  He does wonders over there at Roadhouse Pickups.  If I don't have a special need, like a WRHB pickup or a TV Jones model, Ken is the way to go.
Patrick

I agree. One man's "horrifyingly awful" is another man's dream tone, and every player has a different preferred method of going about with gain stages and such. My personal opinion, however, which is what the OP was asking,  is that extremely high output pickups, in general, tend not to sound as good as lower output pickups. If I had different preferences on tone, I might feel differently. In any case, however, I've never really understood the players that will sacrifice tone (To whatever degree.) to achieve a higher output, when you can simply increase the gain of whatever gain stage you are feeding.

Some bassists prefer gain-boosting preamps. (Though I'd take a unity-gain buffer with or without EQ, myself.) A trim pot in the control cavity to adjust the output level can be useful. I believe that EMG makes a few gain booster switches for guitars, as well. There are a number of reasons we can speculate, as to why active circuits are not common on guitars, but honestly, I think they should be, for the players that want output. At least theoretically, it's a good way to get output without losing tone, or using outboard gear. :blob7:

To my knowledge, EMG's active pickups have high impedance winds. Some active pickups have a low impedance wind plus a gain-boosting preamp, which allows a very quiet (noise-wise) signal that is nice and clear, with a high resonant frequency, yet with a high output because of the gain-boosting preamp. This is a plausible solution, though these kind of pickups make me think of real clean, hi-fi tones. Perhaps not suitable to heavier tonal applications.  :dontknow:

 

[line6man]

If you want THE best...
Bare Knuckle Pickups -> Nailbomb humbuckers

There is no "best" pickup.

People always post threads on TalkBass, to this extent of "What is the absolute best pickup for X?" There is no answer. Everyone has a different ideal of tonality, and not only that, but every pickup sounds different through different rigs and in different instruments.

 

[thebutcher85]

Exactly.
For ME, and MY tastes/uses/rig/whatever, I've found that I like more vintage PAF, low output humbuckers through my high-gain amps.

 

[Strat Avenger]

There is a reason that high-output pickups were developed. The amplifiers of the '60s, '70, and '80s did did not produce enough of that
Rock-N-Roll and Heavy Metal distortion, so a stronger input signal was required (overdrive pedals, hotter pickups).
Modern guitar amps are capable of crazy, over-the-top preamp gain, so the hot pickups and pedals are no longer necessary, yet we still see players like Steve Vai and John Petrucci using very hot pickups along with very high-gain amps.

The lower and medium-output pickups produce a less compressed sound, clean up whrn backing off the guitar's volume knob, and tend to have less bass & mids with more highs.

I prefer low to medium, but a player's style and preference is going to be the determining factor.

 

[line6man]

There is a reason that high-output pickups were developed. The amplifiers of the '60s, '70, and '80s did did not produce enough of that
Rock-N-Roll and Heavy Metal distortion, so a stronger input signal was required (overdrive pedals, hotter pickups).
Modern guitar amps are capable of crazy, over-the-top preamp gain, so the hot pickups and pedals are no longer necessary, yet we still see players like Steve Vai and John Petrucci using very hot pickups along with very high-gain amps.

Precisely.

 

[The Norwegian Guy]

If you want THE best...
Bare Knuckle Pickups -> Nailbomb humbuckers

There is no "best" pickup.

People always post threads on TalkBass, to this extent of "What is the absolute best pickup for X?" There is no answer. Everyone has a different ideal of tonality, and not only that, but every pickup sounds different through different rigs and in different instruments.

It was just a way to express myself.

The Nailbomb is an awesome sounding passive HB, which is damn cose to an active EMG

 

[thebutcher85]

Yeah, I had a set of nailbombs, they are amazing in their own right, I've just gone back to a more old school, low output type for what I'm playing now.

 

[Cagey]

There is a reason that high-output pickups were developed. The amplifiers of the '60s, '70, and '80s did did not produce enough of that
Rock-N-Roll and Heavy Metal distortion, so a stronger input signal was required (overdrive pedals, hotter pickups).
Modern guitar amps are capable of crazy, over-the-top preamp gain, so the hot pickups and pedals are no longer necessary, yet we still see players like Steve Vai and John Petrucci using very hot pickups along with very high-gain amps.

Perzactly.

Back when I was just a grasshopper, our favorite "special effect" was an Electro Harmonix LPB-1, which was simply an additional gain stage in a little box. No distortion or fuzz, it just made your guitar "hot" by kicking its output up a notch. There weren't really any master volume amps back then, so if you wanted to sound like you were beating your amp to death, you had to beat your amp to death. That could only be accomplished by cranking it up to the sky. Of course, that was unacceptable to just about anybody within striking distance, so what was a mother to do? Unclench $29.95 and steal the 9 volt battery out of your transistor pocket radio.

 

[elfro89]

Every pickup is crap and every amp is shite.  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Cagey]

Every pickup is crap and every amp is shit.  :icon_jokercolor:

I think you've hit the nail right on the head. If it weren't for pickups and amps, I could play/sound just like [insert famous so-and-so's name here] .