Neckthrough vs laminate top sustain

[Cederick]

I know some people say neck through guitars suffers from a sustain loss due to the gluing:
but doesn't a laminate top use even more glue than that, PLUS occasionally even being a wood that's not good for tone?  :dontknow:

 

[drewfx]

I know some people say neck through guitars suffers from a sustain loss due to the gluing

People say lots of stuff.  :dontknow:

 

[SustainerPlayer]

Sustain is not tone. Tone is not sustain.

How do you compare two different construction methods and come up with a definite answer to tone and sustain?

How much sustain does one need anyway? And tone for that matter ...?

"This is a good tone" ... "Now have made X-modifications ... now the tone is better".

TLDR, don't trust people who speaks in absolutes about sustain and tone. One really doesn't know how good the guitar will sound and how long it will sustain until it's build and strung up. Next one on the line can/will be different.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Not only that, I think the OP is confusing a glued in set neck with neck thru. 

To contribute to the premise, a glued in neck has to do with the structural integrity of what is basically a string holder, whereas a glued cap or laminate top doesn't.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

I'd add too, for as unbiased as we think we are, a forum of bolt-on construction fan boys is probably not the best place to bring a set neck, neck thru, bolt on neck advantage/disadvantage query.  These discussions have been beat to death.  If one was superior that's what everyone would use.  Paul Gilbert, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Eric Johnson, SRV, David Gilmour, Jimi, Yngvie, Rory Gallagher, Clapton, Blackmore, pretty much everyone, has milked plenty of sustain out of a bolt-on.  Slash, Page, ZW, Duane Alman, you name it, have done the same with a set neck.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

The only study I've ever seen found that people's ears couldn't hear any more sustain from a glued in neck. And a machine could hear fractionally more sustain from a bolt-on. It's just one of those things where what feels like it should be true has been taken to BE true.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

3 humbuckers and low gauge strings are big sustain robbers.

 

[Cagey]

I know some people say neck through guitars suffers from a sustain loss due to the gluing:
but doesn't a laminate top use even more glue than that, PLUS occasionally even being a wood that's not good for tone?  :dontknow:

This is a deep subject with guitars. But, here are a few things to think about.

Think of a glue joint as a shock absorber. Then, think of cross-grains as a way of strengthening.

If you take any old piece of 1" thick plywood and give it a knock, it'll sound deader than... something very dead. No ringing, no resonance, nothing. It's almost like knocking on rubber. But, it'll be very stiff. Much stiffer than a solid piece of the wood it's made of. It's the reason people use plywood rather than solid pieces of wood to do a lot of things (disregarding size and convenience issues).

On a guitar, that can work for and against you.

On the one hand, those glue joints are going to absorb certain frequencies. Which ones? Nobody knows. Gotta play the thing to find out, because regardless of the glue joints, wood has variable densities even within the same species and the same tree. Plus different glues harden differently. It's all pretty unpredictable.

On the other hand, the increased stiffness is going to force the construction to maintain shape against external stress, which translates into increased sustain. Density comes into play, too. Inertia is not to be trifled with. Newton's laws, and all that.

Considering all that, you have to discount anything you hear about whether or not a laminated or through-body neck is a Good Thing. It comes down to the variability of construction methods and materials. Chances are if you play a guitar with a laminated or through-body neck, it's going to sound very dead acoustically. Plug the little rascal in, though, and it'll sustain for days. Frequency response is up for grabs.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

For discussions such as these, construction grade plywood almost has to be discounted when being compared to a multi lam neck or body.  It is usually a cheap, fast growing, garbage wood.  If you've cut a piece you'll notice gaps.  Those can thud as much as a cheap, soft wood that is glued together around it.  Speaker cab companies even go so far as to have cabinet tonewoods and offer void free construction.  A Rickenbacker, Ibanez, Warmoth Gecko multi-lam neck is not even comparable to construction grade plywood.  The glue to wood ratio is non-existent in comparison.  The cross grains aren't positioned 90 degrees apart.  They don't have glue used as grain fill.  Lastly, plywood is peeled off of a soft core that is steamed. 

But like you said, glue is a shock absorber.  The late Ed Roman, one of insightful rants, the newer set neck Gibsons were garbage because it was a sloppy joint with glue taking up the slack.  When steaming a neck joint for removal, he reported a newer one took forever compared to an older one with a better joint and less glue.

 

[Cagey]

I didn't really mean to equate construction grade pine plywood to the very fine joints of neck hardwoods - they're worlds apart - but the mechanics still apply by example. The point is if you laminate woods, they will get stronger/stiffer and resist vibration. So, you're going to lose high end in the glue joints but gain sustain from the overall inability to move (or react to movement, such as you might get from string vibrations). It all comes back to inertia. It's why Les Pauls sound the way they do. Heavy rascal (lotta inertia) with a short neck (small moment of vibration) that's 25% buried in the body (can't move much, if at all) using glue. It's pretty distinct.

 

[greywolf]

I've built bolt ons, set necks, deep tenons, and neck throughs .

I haven't found neck throughs to present any loss of sustain.  As others have mentioned this is a long winded  semi - subjective debate.

My 2 cents : On a neck through the strings contact is all on the same uniterrupted piece of wood, hence the maximum possibilty of resonance transfer . 

With the appropriate pickups, string mass , and amp,  sustain is attainable with most any construction neck joint.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I would go so far as to suggest that the player is the most integral part of all of this.  Sure, some instruments are easier to play and seem magical, but the number of great songs that people used whatever was lying around tends to poke holes in the idea that you require a magical instrument for great tone.  I also don't see an acceptable answer for everyone, so it is a fun discussion, but after that personal opinions tend to take over.
Patrick

 

[drewfx]

So, you're going to lose high end in the glue joints but gain sustain from the overall inability to move (or react to movement, such as you might get from string vibrations).

I'm not really sure how much high end you lose from the glue, and I haven't seen much formal testing in this area. One of the problems is different types of glue are all over the place in terms of hardness and other qualities. And the same glue may be different depending on the application.

But I think 2 of the main mistakes people make here are:

1. Thinking "solid topped acoustic instruments are better than laminates, so this must be because of the glue alone, and it also must apply to all types of laminates everywhere regardless of whether the construction, application or glues used are different or not".

2. Thinking all glues are just like the relatively soft and rubbery white Elmer's glue they grew up with. And applied the way children often would - lots of glue in joints that aren't very tightly fitted.

Aside from that, I think it's mostly just speculating. Personally I'm a believer in a stiffer neck as I don't want the energy from the string's vibrations translated to the neck moving around like a tong on a tuning fork, and I don't believe a small amount of the appropriate glue in a good tight joint is going to absorb much of anything.

But it's not like I actually tested it or anything.

 

[LushTone]

To be honest, I also used to obsess over details as subtle as these. But, I think you shouldn't.

Actually, I would choose a Warmoth or similar bolt neck over a neck though simply because if I had damage to the neck, it could be changed. I know that people say that a neck through would have more sustain, but there's no concrete proof. The neck through design is said to increase sustain because the wood continues from the neck to the end of the body. But, how is that more solid than bolting a neck tight to a body within a exact-fit neck pocket? In my opinion, there's not much science to that notion.

As far as the lam top question goes, choose a chambered body. It has more sustain than a solid body (proven), and the lam top and glue is required. I have two chambered Warmoth bodies and they both have lots of sustain and volume too (just as Warmoth said they would).

 

[Tony Raven]

I would choose a Warmoth or similar bolt neck over a neck though simply because if I had damage to the neck, it could be changed.

What he says. A neck-thru with a cracked neck is either an expensive repair or just a parts donor. A busted bolt-on at least leaves me with a loaded body ready for a new neck.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Here's some of the science.

http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/neckJointSustain.htm

Conventional wisdom has it that the construction of neck joint of the instrument influences the sustain of the instrument. Neck through construction (for electric guitars and basses) is considered to offer the best sustain, followed by set neck (i.e. glued on) construction. Bolt-on necks are considered to offer the worst sustain. A recent experiment in this area suggests that this order may be backwards and that folks can't hear the difference in sustain based on neck joint type anyway.

 

[jackthehack]

Jeez, not this thread again.....

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Straploks kill sustain.

7/8" side jack though, oh boy, sustain for days...

 

[Cagey]

7/8" side jack though, oh boy, sustain for days...

Especially gold ones. Goodness gracious they're shiny! The sustain is nearly infinite!

 

[drewfx]

Here's some of the science.

http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/neckJointSustain.htm

Conventional wisdom has it that the construction of neck joint of the instrument influences the sustain of the instrument. Neck through construction (for electric guitars and basses) is considered to offer the best sustain, followed by set neck (i.e. glued on) construction. Bolt-on necks are considered to offer the worst sustain. A recent experiment in this area suggests that this order may be backwards and that folks can't hear the difference in sustain based on neck joint type anyway.

Is that study available online (I could only find references to it)?

In my experience a lot of these "scientific" experiments, when conducted people who don't have a background in science, end up being severely or fatally flawed in one way or another. Or else broad conclusions are drawn based on limited data from a single test with no independent confirmation. Or sometimes the person conducting the experiment has a great deal of knowledge and experience in one area, but lacks sufficient expertise in another area that is necessary to properly gather or interpret data.

Having said that, even imperfect tests can be interesting...