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Initial Floyd Setup - Springs vs Strings (or Runnin' with the Level)

fdesalvo

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What up!

I'm no stranger to setting up a Floyd from scratch, thanks to my ol' Ibanez, but this new Gotoh seems to have some stiff springs.  Perhaps it's simply because they are new.  I'm going to be using 10-46s with a floating setup.  With the Ibby, that meant 4 springs.  These Gotohs are so stiff, I'm unsure where to start.  Figured I'd throw this out to the wolves since I have nothing to do but ponder things for a couple weeks, as I wait for my neck to arrive.  How many Springs are y'all runnin'?
 
I start by blocking the trem-block with a pre-cut wooden block that sets the trem's base plate parallel with the body face.  From there, I set action with studs prior to string tension just to get it in the ball park.  After that, I'll string it up, determine if any more height adjustment is needed.  If so, de-string, re-set height, then move onto any neck adjustments.  Pretty much doing the basic setup adjustments prior to trem claw/springs being put into play.

Once I've done these basics, I put the springs on the claw, and adjust the claw until the bridge begins to freely float, remove the wooden block, then re-adjust for fine placement.

I use a Tremol-No, so once I've done all of this, I lock it into Hard-Tail Mode, and set intonation, stretch out, and make final adjustments as needed.

From there, any time that the guitar is not in use, I lock into hard tail mode.  If I'm recording rhythm tracks (Standard or Drop D), it's locked into hard tail unless I need a lil shimmer during a clean, which I'll leave it in floating mode for.  If I'm doing a lead that doesn't require pulling up, or if I'm in Drop D, I'll leave it in Dive Only.

From here, I change strings one at a time, and this keeps my system stabilized consistently.
 
Perfect, man.  Thank you very much.  I'm probably going to run a tremol-no at some point.  Right now I've got that other device installed. 

What gauge are you using and how many springs?
 
fdesalvo said:
Perfect, man.  Thank you very much.  I'm probably going to run a tremol-no at some point.  Right now I've got that other device installed. 

What gauge are you using and how many springs?

On the 6-er, 10-46, running 4 springs.  I use 4 springs rather than 3 because it evens the tension on both sides so that when I bend, the trem barely moves.  I started out on this guitar with 2 springs, and found that it really moved, then I gradually went up to 3, then 4 which is the most you can fit on a Tremol-No claw.

I use the same set on my 7 string too, + the .56 for the low B.
 
Loading up on springs improves the return to neutral as well, for those who set the bridge to float.
 
Cagey said:
Loading up on springs improves the return to neutral as well, for those who set the bridge to float.


Had never heard this before. I typically run my trems with three springs. You're saying using four or five will make the "return to zero" more accurate? Interesting....(Rubs chin).
 
double A said:
Cagey said:
Loading up on springs improves the return to neutral as well, for those who set the bridge to float.


Had never heard this before. I typically run my trems with three springs. You're saying using four or five will make the "return to zero" more accurate? Interesting....(Rubs chin).

If the bridge knife edges and stud posts are well maintained, lubed, & kept clean, it stands a better chance.  More springs makes the whole thing move "less" when you bend strings.
 
TonyFlyingSquirrel said:
double A said:
Cagey said:
Loading up on springs improves the return to neutral as well, for those who set the bridge to float.


Had never heard this before. I typically run my trems with three springs. You're saying using four or five will make the "return to zero" more accurate? Interesting....(Rubs chin).

If the bridge knife edges and stud posts are well maintained, lubed, & kept clean, it stands a better chance.  More springs makes the whole thing move "less" when you bend strings.

I've got some synthetic machine gunner's lube that I've used on my trem studs with good effect.  I might be one of the mutants around that enjoys the trem's compliance to string bends.  Really makes bending easy.  Since I don't do double-stops or what-have-you, no harm/no foul.
 
fdesalvo said:
TonyFlyingSquirrel said:
double A said:
Cagey said:
Loading up on springs improves the return to neutral as well, for those who set the bridge to float.


Had never heard this before. I typically run my trems with three springs. You're saying using four or five will make the "return to zero" more accurate? Interesting....(Rubs chin).

If the bridge knife edges and stud posts are well maintained, lubed, & kept clean, it stands a better chance.  More springs makes the whole thing move "less" when you bend strings.

I've got some synthetic machine gunner's lube that I've used on my trem studs with good effect.  I might be one of the mutants around that enjoys the trem's compliance to string bends.  Really makes bending easy.  Since I don't do double-stops or what-have-you, no harm/no foul.

Well, as a fellow "gun guy", I'd love to get a link to that, as I'm always looking at better ways of adding value to my hardware performance, both guns and guitars.
 
Sweet -

Low Viscosity > For bolts/bushing threads/screws/etc: http://www.larue.com/machine-gunners-lube
High Viscosity > For posts/knife edges: https://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewg.php

I can send you a small container of the Slip2K - a little goes a long way.  DM your snail mail if you want some.
 
double A said:
Cagey said:
Loading up on springs improves the return to neutral as well, for those who set the bridge to float.

Had never heard this before. I typically run my trems with three springs. You're saying using four or five will make the "return to zero" more accurate? Interesting....(Rubs chin).

Mr. Fender was also known as "The Frugal Engineer" citation needed, and would never have installed 5 springs just for fun.

He needed a spring that could counterbalance approximately 120lbs of string pull, but had a long enough extension for the necessary operating range and a small enough diameter so it could fit in a shallow cavity. Tough order on the cheap, so why not use multiple small springs so their pull added up to the right amount? Not a new idea, just a practical one, which suited The Frugal Engineer just fine.

You could eliminate a couple/few springs if you simply stretched them farther to get the tension you need, but now you're operating closer to the plastic deformation range of the spring material, which is NFG. Early failure or reduced performance was easy to predict. After all, look how fast strings reach their plastic deformation point and don't return to their original state, resulting in lost tune. So, more springs is the better solution. Springs are cheap, we got room, let's do it. Wouldn't surprise me to learn he was buying surplus brake lining return springs by the pallet load from some big automotive supplier for pennies on the dollar.

As it works out, the force vs. extension curve of a helical spring is fairly linear. This was fine back in the days before Jimi Hendrix and eventually Eddie VanHalen, who thought nothing of driving that wang bar all the way to the pickguard or using it as a handle to swing the guitar around with like some sort of oddly-shaped electric mace. When the Strat was young, vibrato was a subtle thing, used judiciously by responsible jazz players who were too high on the devil's weed to wank and crank like some kind of gorilla on meth. Now we want bomb simulations. All because of Machine Gun.

[youtube]BRE3kjL3Yjg[/youtube]​

Of course, all that wankin' and crankin' is a lotta work and not everybody could afford meth, so guys started pulling springs out to make it easier to behave as though they could. Springs had to be extended farther to do their counterbalancing duty, and got hyper-extended in use, and here we are crying about staying in tune. Just put the springs back and let the claw out a little bit. It's more better.

Although, one thing to consider is if you use older bridge designs like Leo first came up with, the wang bar itself is under-designed for the amount of tension needed to dive to submariner depths with all 5 springs involved. Too skinny. Wants to give in to the bend rather than perform its leveraging duty on the bridge. Also, it's mounting point will wear fast. Stripped screw threads, etc.  That's why you'll notice on Floyds, Wilkinsons, Schallers, etc. that the bar is about twice the diameter.
 
Forget the tonewood debate and whether a tremolo claw should be angled or straight.  It's how many springs reach equilibrium and return to zero.  :occasion14:

 
No, no, no ... It's how fast strings reach their plastic deformation point  :icon_scratch:
 
Plastic Deformation, stretching the limits of modulus imagination since sliced bread was introduced...












:toothy10:
 
Cagey said:
Plastic Deformation - new band name!

23229962.jpg
 
I have nothing positive to add to this discussion. I'm only here to cast my vote for best subject line.
 
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