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I want sweet action: lower height for upper frets

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metalman22105

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So, I love my VIP, (you guys know which one!) the action in the lower registers is great, but at the higher frets it's kind of high, the tech I had it setup with said it was fine, but I think he's a bit weird anyway, what do you guys think? Can I get better, lower action at the higher frets? Do I need to adjust the 510? (bridge)
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The action will (almost) always be higher at the top frets, than at the 12th fret.
However, the amount of relief will make a difference.
Try adjusting the truss rod for more relief than at present.
Then lower the action at the bridge.

The downside is that the upper frets may buzz/ choke/ fret out.

Does the neck have much (any) relief at present?
 
You can't really tell because of the angle of the pics I used, but it does have some relief. Do I need to straighten the neck a little more?
 
Yeah, adjust away! That looks pretty high, good for some but not for others. This is one reason why 'techs' are so annoying - HE shouldn't tell YOU when the action is good and the guitar is playing right, you should tell HIM.

Ideally your relief is between .010 and perfectly straight, depending on preference. Get that part right before going further.
Next your nut - pressing down behind the 2 fret, the strings should just barely, barely (get a magnifying glass) clear the 1st fret. If it touches the 1st fret before it touches the 2nd fret, your nut is toast, get another and don't bother doing anything else until this part is right. Allow a bit more clearance for the wound strings. If your nut isn't right, you'll never have sweet action.
Next, are your saddles filed down? The Gotoh 510 has a 12" radius which is more curved than the W compound fretboards, I had good results filing down the middle sadddles just a bit, to make the radius closer to about 16". Technically it should be 18" but the difference is microscopic at that point so who knows if I got it right.
Finally, experiment with different saddle heights to get a comfortable action, then make sure there aren't any high frets.
 
^ great advice! Yeah I agree completely about looking at the nut and saddles. Personally I make use of the radius guages Stew Mac sells for adjusting the saddles. They REALLY help with setup.

'Sweet action"  :doh:
Dirty minds stink alike!

 
yeah,a shim aint a bad idea. but he needs to check the nut slot depth first, then make sure his saddle radius is right.
I use a neck shim as a last resort, cause it'll only exagerrate any pre-existing conditions.
 
It's a very thin insert, like a piece of cardboard or REALLY thin wood or something, placed between the neck and body in the neck cavity.
People use it to raise the secion of the neck closest to the body, increasing the angle ever so slightly.

since the angle is increased, it can help lower the action on the higher frets, and make the action more uniform on the length of the neck.

The reason I say wait to do that is that is changes the WHOLE neck at once, and if you got nut slots that are too deep or saddles that don't match the radius of the fretboard,  it wont help that.
It helps most effectively when all other items, like the ones Farny identified, have been addressed.
 
Cool! Thanks. I will use the steps Tfarny suggested, and then go from there
 
metalman22105 said:
Cool! Thanks. I will use the steps Tfarny suggested, and then go from there
What bridge is installed now? Is it and angled pocket?
 
the brdige is a Gotoh 510, I *think* the neck pocket is angled, I can't remember, it's a VIP body from warmoth
 
Yes but you can just make one from a piece of cardboard, string, a ruler and a pencil. Or googling around you can probably find a template for free. Hell, I could just take a picture of mine and you could scale it up, print it out and glue it to some stiff cardboard.
 
I found some templates online, I 'm going over to the library to print 'em out and then transfer onto cardboard, this should help immensely! Thanks Tim!
 
The tool that has been the #1 most useful to me is the nut file set that Warmoth sells. Two 100% hand shaped bone nuts so far, and at least two more to go.

I suspect that you may have one or more slightly high frets and that's why the "tech" gave you a higher action instead of actually solving the problem.
 
metalman22105 said:
the brdige is a Gotoh 510, I *think* the neck pocket is angled, I can't remember, it's a VIP body from warmoth

Sorry I misread your original post. Damn dsylexia.

I have a warmoth guitar with the 510/angled pocket. The action is low - it feels like the strings are sitting on the frets.

I start with the strings at desired pitch, neck adjusted flat, and set the string height @ 5/64 from the top of the fret to the bottom of the strings (to 3/64 on the high strings). This is the ideal condition for 10-48 gauge strings.

Then I check for buzz. There are different kinds of buzz some having to do with a truss rod adjustment and some with uneven frets.

If the strings all buzz open - 11th I usually tweak the truss rod, retune, and readjust the string height.

If thre is no buzz open I usually go string-by-string, fret-by-fret, and see if there is any buzz-out which may need to be adjusted with a file (or fret level).

If all goes well I lower/tune until I can get the mad-low action.

Just remember a really low action usually requires a soft touch.

And I've probably oversimplified this all.
 
When folks say - action low, or action high... it means nothing.  Its like long and short hair.  Compared to what, or who?

Now... should someone say, my hair is six inches long, or my action at fret 12 is 3.5/64ths of an inch, then we know exactly what is being said.

First off - only need to shim the neck if the bridge wont go low enough, or the pickups cannot be set lower and they interfere with the action.

Second, tune to pitch, ALWAYS, then check the relief at fret 8 while depressing fret one and fret 21 (or 22).  For most players... all that I know... about .008 to .010 is the relief that works.  A totally flat neck tends to buzz at the low end, close to frets 1 through 3ish.  Too much relief will fret out and buzz at the high end.

After the relief is set, its good to know there are mathematical limits to action height, depending how much you want to bend the string and where.  No matter what, given a low enough action, things will fret out while bending.  Its math, geometry, you cant escape it, but you can work with it.

Everything I mention should be checked via magnifying glass and machinists rule, measuring from the bottom of the string to the top of the fret.

For 12in radius necks, at 24-3/4 scale, you can set the relief to .010, and the elevation at fret 12 to 3.5/64ths of an inch, and 4/64 of an inch, respectively at the low and high E.  Graduate the rest of the strings in between.

For tighter radius, you'll need to raise the strings a little more, as much as another .5/64 of an inch.  All of that should give you at least two steps of bending, maybe three, depending on how heavy handed you are.  Need more bending room?  Raise the action a little more, so it doesn't fret out.  All of this fretting out business is at frets 14-20ish, where you bend up and it chokes the note.  The string is essentially crossing over the frets due to angle and the "hump" of the fretboard radius is in the way.

Folks say... my action is all messed up, its too high, low, whatever... and they think... its the guitar, and it needs a "setup".  Nada.  Either they changed strings (changing the relief due to different tension) or the weather got dry or wet, and the neck shifted a little.  Either way, its the relief, and only the relief that needs adjustment at that point, to get the elevation back in where it needs to be (assuming nothing else was altered).  When the neck gets into a humid condition, the fretboard grows longer and you get more backbow tension.  In dry weather, it gets shorter and you get less backbow tension.  The truss rod needs minor adjustment to compensate.  Here in Fl, we run AC all summer when its hot (and wetter), but in the winter we open the windows.  In the AC, its dry inside, very dry, and fretboards shrink.  When the windows open, its more humid, and the fretboards grow.  So... I adjust my relief for the winter humidity, and live with a slightly higher action in the AC months (or humidify the case).

When the relief is set too great, then your high frets will buzz... why?  Because the player compensates for the high strings by lowering his bridge.  WRONG.  Now the angle of string to neck is all out of kilter at the high end, and you get more buzzing and fretting out.  Again... the KEY to good setups is knowing what good relief is.  You should have about as much room under the string... from bottom of string to top of fret... as your high E string is thick, or maybe... just a tiny bit more.  Use a strong magnifier and maybe even a bit of E string to check.  Having a buddy help is good.  Dont MASH the frets.  Press lightly... at fret 1 and the highest fret.... and see how much room there is under fret 8.  When you make adjustments, go easy, and let it sit a while before doing any further adjustment.  Not days... but a half hour or so.  Just play it during that time, then recheck it, making small adjustments.  If you go for a big adjustment, then you might set up tension which will continue to shift things even after you put the guitar away for the day.  Small adjustment, and several of them, is better.

Ok, nuff on that... go do it.
 
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