Digital effects versus analog. I know, I know, ...huge debate here...

[tt0511]

I've read and read online, so I know this can be an inflammatory subject.  I'll start by saying my first amp was a Line 6 Flextone III.  One day I plugged into a Peavey Classic 30 tube amp and was blown away.  I had some friends tell me they couldn't tell the difference between the modeling amps and the tube amps.  Well, I instantly could recognize the difference.  There's simply no comparison when playing through a real world amp.  Now, digital recording in the computer world and modeling there seems to be a different deal altogether regarding sound.

So, I sold my flextone and got the classic 30.  I love my amp.  I think there is also a very noticeable difference between my overdrive/distortion stomp boxes and the modeling of distortion/overdrive.  I own a line 6 DL4 delay unit and though I haven't played with it a lot, I really like it.  I haven't compared it to anything like a Boss delay stomp so maybe I don't know what I'm missing.  Regardless, I like the DL4 sounds.

My question is whether there's a noticeable difference between modeled modulation effects (phasing/flanging/etc.) and the analog.  I'm considering selling my DL4 and Chorus/Flanger and getting a new Line 6 M13.  It is purely a stomp box modeling unit, but with the ability to change your sound with one click.  I don't gig a lot, ...right now only once a year for a charity event.  But, when I do it seems we cover lots of different sounds from shimmery clean to brown to heavily distorted to a rotovibe/leslie effect, and on and on.  So, it's kinda hard to hit all those sounds in between songs, and I don't quite have all the pedals to do it.

Is there a downside I need to consider regarding this M13 or is there a better unit out there for effects only?  I'm really attracted to the 4-cable capability of the M13 so I can run what I want in front of the amp, and send what I want to the effects loop of the amp.  Also, you can run your analog pedals with the M13 and control where they are plugged into the effects chain inside the M13!  So, I would keep my amp's distortion along with my favority stomp boxes.

I guess in short what I'm trying to ask is, ...I know I can tell a difference between a modeling amp and a real tube amp, but is that the same in the effects realm?  Seems like that may be a little bit different deal.

Experiences?  Educated Opinions?  I want to go try one of the units myself first, but I don't know if I'll be able to tell a big difference since I don't have those effects in analog pedals except for my phaser and flanger.  With my flextone amp, it took a little while for my ears to be able to tell the difference.  (My subconsious knew it before my ear told me because it didn't interact with my fingers on the guitar the way the tube amp does.)  But, from what I hear, line 6 does a good job on phaser and flanger effects.  I could keep my Phase 90 just in case.  My flanger isn't all that great anyway, ...at least not one of those "must have" flangers.

 

[Justinginn]

I think most BOSS delays are digital. As far as other effects go, having something as huge as the M13 doesn't make much sense when you could just have the effects you really need (like do you REALLY need a ring mod, flange, chorus AND univibe? Could you get by with one or two?) I'd build a small pedalboard with real effects that you can hand pick, be sure you'll get a good sound, modify in the future, etc. and play the real thing not some model. The biggest plus (though it doesn't apply to the M13 as much) is that you control all your knobs and switches yourself instead of having to battle presets, etc. That's just my take. It all seems so much easier when you go simple. But I don't use that many effects and other people will probably approach the issue differently.

 

[AndyG]

This debate is probably as old as digital technology itself ...

Phasing, flanging, chorus, and even delay ALL started out as analog effects.  Everything (except delay) is based on a phase relationship between the original signal, and a duplicate of that signal.  The advantage digital has over analog for these types of effects is it can copy the signal without adding noise.  Any analog effect will add some noise as it copies the signal (kind of like a photocopy of a photocopy ... the second one won't be as sharp).  Some people like this "smearing" effect analog boxes add to the signal, and call it "warmth".

Depending on your situation, the difference can be huge or negligible.  In a quiet recording studio, the difference will be obvious.  If you're playing a club at 2AM, using an unshielded Strat, I doubt ANYONE will notice the difference.  The same can be said for "real" amps versus modelers ... depends on the situation.  I think people would be surprised how many gold and platinum selling albums have been sold in recent years where all the guitar tones are virtual.

The bottom line (for me) has always been ... "if I like the way it sounds, I'll buy it".  I love analog gear, and there are some digital boxes that blow me away as well.  All snobbery aside, I could care less if it has a tube or a multi-core processor, as long as it gives me the sound I want.

 

[mayfly]

+1 to the above.  The over arcing rule of tone is:  If it sounds good, USE IT.

 

[tt0511]

I guess personally I even have an internal struggle over the debate.  I do NOT like noise.  Perhaps it's my nature as I'm an engineer, ...I'm mathmatical, want things to make sense and am a purist to a degree.  In other words, I do not like things to be complicated.  I like things simple.  When I had my flextone modeling amp, the thing I really did like was being able to save a whole setup for a song and just punch one button, or make a setup for rhythm guitar and have a button for a lead tone there, ..with one click.

I believe that most of the time, one can do this with the typical pedals on a pedal board.  However, if you get to where you have to remember to tap multiple pedals for various parts of a song at the same time, ...I'm not a good dancer, ha ha.  That's why the digital floor boards are attractive to me.  But, I'm a tone nut as well.  When I listen to music, I really listen hard to the sounds on the record/CD.

It seems that while analog or typical pedal board setups seem very simple in one way, they are complicated in another (signal loss, noise issues, cable issues, quick adjust issues, etc.).  Digital seems to simplify things in one way, and yet complicate them in another.  LOL

I seem to usually be happy with my current simple setup, but when I do these gigs I seem to be lacking what I need.  This year I'll be playing a 45 minute set that includes the variety from Santana in The Game of Love, Home Sweet Home by the Crue, to Chain of Fools with that roto-vibe or leslie, whatever that thing is, as well as a handful of other songs.  But the range in tones, ...perhaps it's my lack of playing out and having experience switching between songs but it seems at least a little intimidating.

The first year I did the gig I had the Flextone and the bass player who's a veteran player actually complimented me on being able to switch my sound so easily and quickly.  He said he played in a band with a guy who could nail the tones in all the songs they covered, ...but he'd be fiddling with knobs for five minutes between songs to get there.  Now, that right there is what I'm NOT about.

So, I'm wrestling with how to do all that and still get great sound.  At home where I write my own stuff and record, I have the liberty of using the line 6 TonePort, or my live amp with a mic.  I can take time to switch out pedals as I desire to get the sound I want no matter how long it takes.  Live, that liberty doesn't exist.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

The older analog delays (which the flange, chorus, reverb, and echos are all delays, just different time frames and a couple of whiz bang ideas incorporated into them) use something called the "Bucket Brigade" chips.  These are named this because the signal is dumped from one holding bucket to the next like a fire men's line before the delayed signal is reintroduced.  They have a unique sound, and signal decay.  Old Pink Floyd echos, U2 songs, use this device.  The knock on Digital is it doesn't decay or degrade and the signal never goes away quite right.  I have built a couple of pedals that have the bucket brigade chips in them and they sound very rich.  It could just be the built pedals are a better design, or the chips sound better, or some combination of both.  I don't know other than I think that they are kinda cool.

Further messing up the landscape is the difference between solid state (analog or digital) and tube amps.  There is no comparison in my mind.  Tubes do not behave in a linear fashion, so things like playing softly or whacking the strings with a pick strike have radically different effects than when done on a solid state amp.  There are filter aspects that the tubes do that solid state do not, which are very noticeable.  The list goes on.  I will say for a gigging musician that need to play multiple styles, a little modeling combo amp is great.  Not more than three people in the crowd can generally tell when you jump from a pop song to a country song that you are using a solid state rig.  But, if it is just my make noise rig, it is going to be a tube amp for me.

To be quite honest, I build my own stuff now for the odd ball things.  I can get the circuits/kits of whatever I'd like and put it together with the mods to make it sound like the tunes I like.  I don't do it for ultimate indy cred or and adjectives in that vein, I know my own tastes and it is easier than trying to find some product out there that does what I want.  If you play the Line 6 and it does it for you, go for it.  I have an Ibanez "Lo Fi" pedal, a cousin of the Valnøtt, and I love it.  I think in general you'll find the, "whatever floats your boat," attitude around here...
Patrick

 

[AndyG]

So, I'm wrestling with how to do all that and still get great sound.  At home where I write my own stuff and record, I have the liberty of using the line 6 TonePort, or my live amp with a mic.  I can take time to switch out pedals as I desire to get the sound I want no matter how long it takes.  Live, that liberty doesn't exist.

If you can get your head around the idea of playing live with a laptop, any of the guitar amp modeling softwares available will do everything you ask for and more.  You can go from screaming Marshall stack to clean Jazz Chorus to weird FX chains for that one song that nobody else plays.

I use Native Instruments Guitar Rig II, with the foot controller.  As I haven't played live now for some time (I just play, write and record at home), it works amazingly well without having to spend $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on a bunch of amps and effects.  I would not hesitate to use this software live, I just haven't had the opportunity yet.

 

[tt0511]

I can say one thing.  I do see a lot of bashing of modeling "anything" on the net.  But like AndyG said, many, many of the recordings heard on the radio today were recorded in a virtual environment.  There's a lot of discrediting a model of a stomp box or an amp.  While I lean in that direction on one side, there's another thing to consider that I've thought about deeply.

People bash a company like Boss or Line6 for not "precisely" to every nuance replicating a stomp box sound for example.  But, with all the brands of any effects, there is variability between them.  So, if a modeled stomp box is just slightly off from a particular name brand, how does that make the modeled sound any worse than just a different brand of the said effect?  I hope that makes sense.  If what you love in your heart is an Ibanez TS-9, that's great.  Lots of people like a different stomp box.  Yet, it seems that so many who disagree over what is the best analog stomp box, all join forces against the modeling of any of them, LOL.  While I get it, ...I don't get it.  ;o)  Another way to say that is, ..if Boss or Line 6 make good sounding effects on their own credit, based on their own sounds, then they've developed their own sounds, but that doesn't make their product "crap".  It may not be what someone likes themselves, but it doesn't seem fair to bash them for very small differences between the real thing and the model of it.

But, ...I'm my own devil's advocate here too, LOL.  Maybe the answer is to buy all the stuff!  Analog and Digital!

I do sincerely appreciate all the fair "toned" input and discussion on the forum here though!

 

[tt0511]

So, I'm wrestling with how to do all that and still get great sound.  At home where I write my own stuff and record, I have the liberty of using the line 6 TonePort, or my live amp with a mic.  I can take time to switch out pedals as I desire to get the sound I want no matter how long it takes.  Live, that liberty doesn't exist.

If you can get your head around the idea of playing live with a laptop, any of the guitar amp modeling softwares available will do everything you ask for and more.  You can go from screaming Marshall stack to clean Jazz Chorus to weird FX chains for that one song that nobody else plays.

I use Native Instruments Guitar Rig II, with the foot controller.  As I haven't played live now for some time (I just play, write and record at home), it works amazingly well without having to spend $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on a bunch of amps and effects.  I would not hesitate to use this software live, I just haven't had the opportunity yet.

I seriously looked at that idea when Guitar Rig came out.  I'm scared to use my laptop live.  I just don't have confidence in Bill Gates enough to depend on my computer to not lock up or glitch during a set!  ha ha.  It's a fantastic idea though.  I'm just scared of it.

 

[Superlizard]

There are no t00b amp dynamics with "modeled" t00b amps (Guitar Rig 2 & 3 included)... just flat, uninspiring cardboard-box tone.

 

[dbw]

There are no t00b amp dynamics with "modeled" t00b amps (Guitar Rig 2 & 3 included)... just flat, uninspiring cardboard-box tone.

I agree... you can tell when it comes to distortion/overdrive/dynamics.

For reverb you gotta go digital unless you have a reverb tank.  Digital delays are very good.  For digital modulation effects, if they sound good use 'em, but most of them are analog because they require a lot less circuitry to do the job better. 

 

[AndyG]

There are no t00b amp dynamics with "modeled" t00b amps (Guitar Rig 2 & 3 included)... just flat, uninspiring cardboard-box tone.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here .....

Modeling software doesn't float your boat .... I can respect that.  But sweeping generalizations like that is like saying all Mexican food is too spicy.  I think we've had this debate in another thread, so I'll simply state that I happen to like the "flat, uninspiring cardboard-box tone" that I can acheive.  In fact, I find it dynamic, unique and very inspiring. 

 

[Superlizard]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here .....

Modeling software doesn't float your boat .... I can respect that.  But sweeping generalizations like that is like saying all Mexican food is too spicy.   I think we've had this debate in another thread, so I'll simply state that I happen to like the "flat, uninspiring cardboard-box tone" that I can acheive.  In fact, I find it dynamic, unique and very inspiring.  

T'ain't no sweeping generalization... and of course, talk is sh!t - as a friendly "challenge", ya have any clips to show us the "dynamics"?

I have both (Marshall JTM45 modded to '60s specs, '67 Fender Deluxe & Guitar Rig 2/3), and there's no fuggin' comparison.  The only
worthwhile tone GR2 or 3 has is the clean tones... distortion is out of the question.

For example, with the amp set a certain way with no further amp adjustments:

- Can you pick softly and get a cleanish tone?
- Can you then dig in with the pick and get more dirt?
- Can you turn down the volume knob on the guitar and get a cleaner tone, then turn up the volume knob and get more dirt?

These are just some of the ways a good t00b amp shows off its dynamics.

The modelers simply have yet to "model" the dynamics and mojo of a powert00b bein' pushed.

 

[erogenousjones17]

No need to argue; Jerry will come along and tell us about the one "right" tone.  :laughing7: (I'm kidding, nobody get all bent out of shape...)

 

[AndyG]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here .....

Modeling software doesn't float your boat .... I can respect that.  But sweeping generalizations like that is like saying all Mexican food is too spicy.   I think we've had this debate in another thread, so I'll simply state that I happen to like the "flat, uninspiring cardboard-box tone" that I can acheive.  In fact, I find it dynamic, unique and very inspiring.  

T'ain't no sweeping generalization... and of course, talk is sh!t - as a friendly "challenge", ya have any clips to show us the "dynamics"?

I have both (Marshall JTM45 modded to '60s specs, '67 Fender Deluxe & Guitar Rig 2/3), and there's no fuggin' comparison.  The only
worthwhile tone GR2 or 3 has is the clean tones... distortion is out of the question.

For example, with the amp set a certain way with no further amp adjustments:

- Can you pick softly and get a cleanish tone?
- Can you then dig in with the pick and get more dirt?
- Can you turn down the volume knob on the guitar and get a cleaner tone, then turn up the volume knob and get more dirt?

These are just some of the ways a good t00b amp shows off its dynamics.

The modelers simply have yet to "model" the dynamics and mojo of a powert00b bein' pushed.

I will pick up the gauntlet and accept your challange.  Obviously I have nothing on hand, and it may be a few days as work is nuts these days, but I will create something that satisfies the above criteria.

 

[mayfly]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here .....

Modeling software doesn't float your boat .... I can respect that.  But sweeping generalizations like that is like saying all Mexican food is too spicy.   I think we've had this debate in another thread, so I'll simply state that I happen to like the "flat, uninspiring cardboard-box tone" that I can acheive.  In fact, I find it dynamic, unique and very inspiring.  

T'ain't no sweeping generalization... and of course, talk is sh!t - as a friendly "challenge", ya have any clips to show us the "dynamics"?

I have both (Marshall JTM45 modded to '60s specs, '67 Fender Deluxe & Guitar Rig 2/3), and there's no fuggin' comparison.  The only
worthwhile tone GR2 or 3 has is the clean tones... distortion is out of the question.

For example, with the amp set a certain way with no further amp adjustments:

- Can you pick softly and get a cleanish tone?
- Can you then dig in with the pick and get more dirt?
- Can you turn down the volume knob on the guitar and get a cleaner tone, then turn up the volume knob and get more dirt?

These are just some of the ways a good t00b amp shows off its dynamics.

The modelers simply have yet to "model" the dynamics and mojo of a powert00b bein' pushed.

I will pick up the gauntlet and accept your challange.  Obviously I have nothing on hand, and it may be a few days as work is nuts these days, but I will create something that satisfies the above criteria.

Gentlemen,

I am very interested in hearing clips from both of you.  Please keep it friendly.

Yours in great tone,
Mayfly

 

[Superlizard]

It's all good - I just wanna hear with my own ears these supposed "dynamics" you can get with a distorted tone in Guitar Rig (or any other modeler). 

I have 2 versions of GR, and I've fiddled and tweaked (fun to click stuff, if anything), but I couldn't find a decent dist. tone in there; let alone any "dynamics".

Hell, if I have to, I'll do my own comparison clips to prove it.

 

[AndyG]

It's all good - I just wanna hear with my own ears these supposed "dynamics" you can get with a distorted tone in Guitar Rig (or any other modeler).  

I have 2 versions of GR, and I've fiddled and tweaked (fun to click stuff, if anything), but I couldn't find a decent dist. tone in there; let alone any "dynamics".

Hell, if I have to, I'll do my own comparison clips to prove it.

Actually, you bring up an interesting point ... What is "good distortion" in your mind's eye?   For example, to me, Randy Rhodes, while one of the greatest guitar players, his recorded tone was one of the crappiest (IMO).  Jake E Lee managed to get a great distorted tone on Ozzy's records.  I like old Iron Maiden guitar tones, and I like Rammstien guitar tones, Santana to Satch, Vai to Van Halen ... whose tone is good?

How 'bout this .... what are the settings on your Marshall, what FX boxes, and what kind of cab do you use to get a tone with your imposed criteria.  That will give me a starting point.

 

[Superlizard]

Actually, you bring up an interesting point ... What is "good distortion" in your mind's eye?   For example, to me, Randy Rhodes, while one of the greatest guitar players, his recorded tone was one of the crappiest (IMO).  Jake E Lee managed to get a great distorted tone on Ozzy's records.  I like old Iron Maiden guitar tones, and I like Rammstien guitar tones, Santana to Satch, Vai to Van Halen ... whose tone is good?

How 'bout this .... what are the settings on your Marshall, what FX boxes, and what kind of cab do you use to get a tone with your imposed criteria.  That will give me a starting point.

"good distortion" is purely subjective... you like "x", I like "y" and Joe Shredsalot down the street likes "z".  Amp dynamics, OTOH, are either present or not.  My idea in general of "good distortion" consists of a vintage-circuit (the less signal processing and channels, the better), all-t00b amp goosed by a good stompbox.

Anyhoo, here's my typical settings for my current Marshall rig setup - it should be noted that of course,
you'll not be able to emulate everything (GR doesn't have the MI Audio Crunchbox nor THD Yellowjackets, for example).
As well, I always record dry and add FX later in my DAW... so this is about as simple as it gets.

============================================================================

- Marshall JTM45 knob settings (not much to tweak):

(reference photo, not actual pic  

Presence:                10
Bass:                       2
Mid:                        10
Treble:                     10
High Treble Volume:   5

Guitar goes into Ch. 1 Hi input.

*it should be noted that normally, the amp runs KT66 powert00bs; however, I have chosen to use THD
Yellowjackets (2x JJ EL84s) because I love the chime.  The amp therefore sounds like a "Vox-shall".

- Stompbox is an MI Audio Crunchbox (for higher gain)

(reference photo, not actual pic  

Settings:

Vol:    10 o'clock
Tone:  10 o'clock
Gain:  10 o'clock

- Speaker cab is an Avatar  G112 Vintage (with open back)

(reference photo, not actual pic

- Speaker is a single 16 ohm Celestion Alnico Gold

(reference photo, not actual pic

- Guitar is typically either a stock Strat-type with vintage trem, or a humbucker-equipped guitar.  Humbucker is *always* a SD Seth Lover (bridge or neck)... e.g.  stock, standard ~8K PAF fare.

 

[chrisg]

- Stompbox is an MI Audio Crunchbox (for higher gain)

(reference photo, not actual pic  

Settings:

Vol:    10 o'clock
Tone:  10 o'clock
Gain:  10 o'clock

[/quote]

That Crunchbox is one serious tone machine - the gain is phenomonal and the distortion is very adjustable from mild breakup to insane.  By the way I use mine with the same settings as above  :glasses9: