Digital effects versus analog. I know, I know, ...huge debate here...

[tt0511]

[/Quote] Good is good to your ears.  Does anyone else really matter if it sounds good to you? [/Quote]

I agree, ...except when I disagree with someone else.  :laughing7:

There's also the whole thing about isolating an instrument versus what it sounds like in a mix.  The goal of playing an instrument is to make music.  Good tone is needed.  But if you can't tell if the tone is just as perfect as another tone when it's buried in the mix, ...doesn't that kinda settle the whole debate?  If you're sitting in a room just doodling, you may can tell the difference, and if it bothers you, ...go pure tubes.  If it doesn't, then don't worry about it.  Myself, ...I could tell a difference between my Flextone amp and my Classic 30.  But the interface of the TonePort to the computer environment, to my ears that's a different domain.  And, to many many other pro engineers.  That's why there are many, many studios using TonePorts to record.  My friend is a pro bass player for a couple of big time country acts that you would instantly recognize.  He also has his own studio and does mixing and recording for artists.  He uses the Toneport extensively for his guitar work.  For someone with an ear that good to do that says something to me.

But, I am also sympathetic to the purist mentality because, as I said before, ...although I get it, ...I don't get it.  Ha!

 

[Superlizard]

I agree, ...except when I disagree with someone else.  :laughing7:

There's also the whole thing about isolating an instrument versus what it sounds like in a mix.  The goal of playing an instrument is to make music.  Good tone is needed.  But if you can't tell if the tone is just as perfect as another tone when it's buried in the mix, ...doesn't that kinda settle the whole debate?

It does depend on what kind of music you're playing, and the guitar style you're doing.

Most classic rock won't allow for FX-laden, over-compressed, infinite sustain guitar tone.

But the newer styles, sure - then I can see how modeling could cover the bases.

Like say for example, you're gonna play "Back In Black" by AC/DC... good luck using a modeler to get an authentic tone, cuz it ain't gonna happen; too much t00b amp dynamics going on.

But if you're doing "Flying In A Blue Dream" by Satriani, you could with a modeler, because S. uses so much gain and compression in his tone that it lacks dynamics, and is therefore in a way "solid-state" sounding.

 

[AndyG]

Good is good to your ears.  Does anyone else really matter if it sounds good to you? [/Quote]

I agree, ...except when I disagree with someone else.  :laughing7:

There's also the whole thing about isolating an instrument versus what it sounds like in a mix.  The goal of playing an instrument is to make music.  Good tone is needed.  But if you can't tell if the tone is just as perfect as another tone when it's buried in the mix, ...doesn't that kinda settle the whole debate?  If you're sitting in a room just doodling, you may can tell the difference, and if it bothers you, ...go pure tubes.  If it doesn't, then don't worry about it.  Myself, ...I could tell a difference between my Flextone amp and my Classic 30.  But the interface of the TonePort to the computer environment, to my ears that's a different domain.  And, to many many other pro engineers.  That's why there are many, many studios using TonePorts to record.  My friend is a pro bass player for a couple of big time country acts that you would instantly recognize.  He also has his own studio and does mixing and recording for artists.  He uses the Toneport extensively for his guitar work.  For someone with an ear that good to do that says something to me.

But, I am also sympathetic to the purist mentality because, as I said before, ...although I get it, ...I don't get it.  Ha!
[/quote]

You bring up some points that further confuse this debate.
A guitar tone that sounds monsterous by itself can sound awful in a mix because it takes up too much sonic real estate ... hence the term "mix".  Everything's gotta fit together.

Recording vs live .... oh boy ... In a live situtation, you have the sound of the club, the audience ( a full room always sounds better than an empty one ) and the PA.  In some cases, not even the PA ... your amp has to fill the room.   Add to that drunken partrons screaming "Zepplin" or "Freebird" ... you could be playing through a practice amp, and as long as it was loud enough nobody would notice or care (worst-case senario).  Or, you've got this tone you love, and the soundman f/$%?ks it up .... or the PA sounds like crap .... the possibilities are endless!

In a recording studio, there are 2 schools of thought, and I usually leave it to the guitarist to decide.  Option 1:  the guitarist loves his/her tone.  At that point, it is my job to reproduce it as faithfully as possible in the control room's monitors.  Option 2:  the guitarist wants a sound he/she heard on an album, but their gear can't quite reproduce it.   At that point, you start playing with studio tricks: mic choices and placement, EQ, compression, and FX.  Having said that, you'll never get a Fender Twin to sound like a Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier, but you get the idea.

At home, your tone should inspire.  The Edge of U2 seems to get ideas for song by playing with delays and other FX.  Others seem to thrive on pure balls-to-the-wall distortion.  And now, with products like Fender's VG Strat, the Variaxes, and Roland's VG boxes ... choosing a tone you want either becomes more complicated or more creative.  Options are never a bad thing.

And, as several others have pointed out, if YOU like it, then that's all that really matters.

 

[Nightclub Dwight]

Good tone is like pornography.  You might not be able to define it, but you know what it is when you experience it.

 

[jerryjg]

The day i use ANY modeling gear is the day the mortician scoops my cold greasy guts into a bucket .

 

[jay4321]

I wonder if the concept of "pure" guitar tone even makes sense the way we're using it. After all, we're talking about electric guitars, plugged into electronic amplifiers, often with effects that distort and alter the sound even further. Supposedly Segovia even went so far as to call it  an "abomination."

 

[jay4321]

Anyway, with regard to the subject of effects, I had a handful of pedals until very recently. Some digital, some analog. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and some effects are definitely suited to one more than the other.

 

[tt0511]

Well, maybe I'm going about this wrong, ...maybe not.  I'm swayed to at least check out the M13.  I'm selling some stuff to get funds for that or a pedal train pedal board and some stomps.  But, I just thought of an option I haven't considered today.  I don't have a lot of experience with amps.  I only know my peavey classic 30 kicked my flextone 3's ass all over the place.

Could it be though, that there are two or three killer amps that I should be considering in the $1000 or less range that would blow my classic 30 away?  I could probably trade in or sell the classic 30 and add the funds I'm generating to get something like an Egnator, Bogner Alchemist or something in that neighborhhood.  I need to go play some and be patient about this I suppose.  I do want my pedals organized and my floor cleaned up, but I could live with it another couple of months if I would be even more happy with something I've not even discovered yet in my dream amp set up.  I do know that lots of famous recordings have been made with the classic 30 though.

I like to play everything.  Cleans, browns, distortion, ...but not death metal.  Whatcha think?

 

[mayfly]

Could it be though, that there are two or three killer amps that I should be considering in the $1000 or less range that would blow my classic 30 away?  I could probably trade in or sell the classic 30 and add the funds I'm generating to get something like an Egnator, Bogner Alchemist or something in that neighborhhood.  I need to go play some and be patient about this I suppose.  I do want my pedals organized and my floor cleaned up, but I could live with it another couple of months if I would be even more happy with something I've not even discovered yet in my dream amp set up.  I do know that lots of famous recordings have been made with the classic 30 though.

I like to play everything.  Cleans, browns, distortion, ...but not death metal.  Whatcha think?

weeeel, i'd recommend any of the boutique AC30 style amps out there - especially those with a master volume.  you should be able to get a good one used for that. 

say a nice mayfly BC30  :icon_biggrin:

 

[blue313]

Good thought there.  You should probably go and try out some of the real classics.  Lots of great recordings were done with a Vox AC30 as well.

 

[tt0511]

Could it be though, that there are two or three killer amps that I should be considering in the $1000 or less range that would blow my classic 30 away?  I could probably trade in or sell the classic 30 and add the funds I'm generating to get something like an Egnator, Bogner Alchemist or something in that neighborhhood.  I need to go play some and be patient about this I suppose.  I do want my pedals organized and my floor cleaned up, but I could live with it another couple of months if I would be even more happy with something I've not even discovered yet in my dream amp set up.  I do know that lots of famous recordings have been made with the classic 30 though.

I like to play everything.  Cleans, browns, distortion, ...but not death metal.  Whatcha think?

weeeel, i'd recommend any of the boutique AC30 style amps out there - especially those with a master volume.  you should be able to get a good one used for that.  say a nice mayfly BC30  :icon_biggrin:

How about some ideas, like specific brands or amps?  I'm not well studied on them.  I went by the store this afternoon.  Sam Ash didn't have anything I was interested in.  Same old same old.  Fender cleans are sweet.  I want an amp with good cleans, but I don't play them predominately.  I went by Best Buy (only other place with amps on the way home) and tried the Bogner Alchemist.  I think the unit was defective.  The first notes I played, I was like "oh crap!".  Those cleans sounded awesome!  Crisp.  But there was something weird about it.  So, I gave it some gain and it just sounded like mud flapping in the wind.  I'm fairly convinced the speaker was blown.  I have to find one somewhere else to try.

I like to play a lot of instrumental guitar stuff along the lines of Satriani, Vai.  I'm kinda headed in the direction of Guthrie Govan.  I really dig his style on the song "Fives".  If you haven't checked that out, you owe it to yourself.  I guess that's what's called Fusion Jazz?  Rock with jazz influence?  So, I'm not sure a Vox or Fender suits that style.  Perhaps it can accommodate that style and I just don't know it.  I just haven't seen Eric Johnson, Vai, Satriani, etc playing through one, or their followers.  I know that the AC30 model in the Line 6 Toneport has cleans to die for.  But it doesn't seem to produce the other sounds that I would call high gain.  Educate me here!  ha ha.  When I play these gigs for charity, it's all cover tunes and they cover a wide range.  I do jam to zep', ac/dc and all kinds of stuff.  A wide mix though when I have to do the charity events.

 

[jay4321]

If you're in the market for a "real" amp, you have to just go hit Sam Ash or whatever music stores you can and play them. Someone like me using modeling stuff can be less picky, but if you're heavily invested in one main amp you really have to get it right.

To offer a suggestion, the Mesa Dual Rec has been my favorite amp for a few years. I used to really despite them since so many awful 90s bands use it (playing crappy death metal and so on), but peeled back a little bit it's actually quite a good sound for rock in general. It has a real distinct beefy flavor to it with cleans, and loves LP-type guitars. If only my condos wall were a bit thicker I'd own one myself.

 

[tt0511]

Thanks Jay.  That's really good advice.  I'm searching the net for different boutique amps and trying to listen to sound samples to narrow down what I want to test drive if I can find it.  I'm just trying to be patient and make a good decision now.  I think I got GAS for some stuff really bad, but now that I've seen more options I'm trying to be careful to see what hits the sweet spot for me.

Amps I want to try out that I know of right now are:

Egnator
Bogner Alchemist
Blackheart 5w (this may be a good compliment to my classic 30.  Hard to pass up for a used mint condition price so low.  Curious to know what it'll sound like plugged into my Mesa Thiele cab)
Mesa Lonestar / Special

The thing I have to be careful of is wattage.  It seems that you need more watts to keep cleans from breaking up at gig volume, but you need lower watts to play at home levels.  I noticed last time I played out that my classic 30 was breaking up with the volume on the clean channel at 4 or so.  I remember being a little surprised by that.  I did have the boost switch on which is supposed to boost the gain.  I have always left it on because it seemed to sound better at home and it doesn't get out of the house much.  Now I'm experimenting with the amp without the boost on to explore the amp a little more.  I know that there's no possible way that anyone could ever need anything more than 30 watts of tube power at home.  Crap, I can never open up my amp at all!  It'll make your ears bleed in the house.  It rarely gets past 2.5 or 3 with the boost on.  Volume seems to drop by about 1.5 of the value without the boost, so I can put it higher without that on.

I may be content with a really tasty low wattage head plugged into that Mesa cab.  I'll just have to try and see.  People really seem to like those Blackheart amps.  I've got a lot of exploring to do.  I need to pull a classic 30 at the store and drop some really high quality pedals in front of it and see what happens.  I could end up with a Blackheart (if I like it) and some really great pedals.  But, even though that Bogner Alchemist sounded like the speaker was blown, at low volumes the cleans were pristine compared to the classic 30.  I dug that.  And, I know the Alchemist is capable of higher gain sounds than the classic 30 as well.  The Alchemist seems to be a pretty versatile amp.

 

[erogenousjones17]

I know that there's no possible way that anyone could ever need anything more than 30 watts of tube power at home.  Crap, I can never open up my amp at all!  It'll make your ears bleed in the house.  It rarely gets past 2.5 or 3 with the boost on. 

So true. My only "real" amp is a 50-watt Peavey toober, and when I play in my apartment it's just slightly above, you know, ON. I also use the gain boost at low volume, but don't need it when I turn it up a bit. But even when I play with my band I rarely get passed 4 or 4.5. Makes me think I have way more amp than I need, and that even though I love the way it sounds, maybe I'm missing out on something more by not being able to really crank it. I just can't bear to think of getting rid of this amp, because I love it.

I have been considering getting a small toob amp, however; namely the 5w Blackheart or an Orange Tiny Terror. Damn amplifiers. So much to consider, and so expensive to play around with!  :laughing7:

 

[Superlizard]

I know that there's no possible way that anyone could ever need anything more than 30 watts of tube power at home.  Crap, I can never open up my amp at all!  It'll make your ears bleed in the house.  It rarely gets past 2.5 or 3 with the boost on.  

So true. My only "real" amp is a 50-watt Peavey toober, and when I play in my apartment it's just slightly above, you know, ON. I also use the gain boost at low volume, but don't need it when I turn it up a bit. But even when I play with my band I rarely get passed 4 or 4.5. Makes me think I have way more amp than I need, and that even though I love the way it sounds, maybe I'm missing out on something more by not being able to really crank it. I just can't bear to think of getting rid of this amp, because I love it.

I have been considering getting a small toob amp, however; namely the 5w Blackheart or an Orange Tiny Terror. Damn amplifiers. So much to consider, and so expensive to play around with!  :laughing7:

Dude, you need a Hot Plate or similar power attenuator.

 

[tfarny]

A 5w blackheart through an efficient speaker (mine goes through a V30) and decent tubes sounds like heaven when fully cranked. Jack measured his at 100db cranked - that's definite band practice territory.

 

[tt0511]

Well, ha ha, I don't think I'll ever get to crank even the Blackheart at home.  Aren't rock concerts around 100-120db?  I'd have to push it with an overdrive pedal.

While we're on the subject, I've noticed some boutique amps (such as Mathless) are one channel amps.  How would one play a song that has a clean verse and overdriven lead on an amp like that?  Maybe that's a dumb question, ...I've just never owned a one channel amp.  I guess it's kinda obvious you'd have to push it with a pedal, or crank it up and back off the guitar volume knob for a cleaner tone.  But, is there an advantage to a one channel amp or are they just saving money and lowering the price of the amp?  Just seems like 2 channels with a footswitch makes more sense to my brain.

I was thinking that Blackheart 5w, or maybe even the Ant 1w would be perfect to get that beautiful tone at home, when pushed through that Mesa 1x12 ported cab that is loaded with the Celestion V30.  And, ...it's just hard not to buy one just for the fun of it at the price.

 

[tfarny]

I have both the ant and the little giant. The ant is the most fun for $ I've bought in guitar gear. People spend more than that on a fuzz pedal!  It is a one-trick pony but a fun ride, though you have to replace the tubes - a decent 12ax7 in V1 and a 12Ay7 or 12AT7 in V2. The V2 position especially needs changing.  I crank it all the time, and use the EQ from my multieffects if I need a little extra treble.
If you get the little giant and live in an apartment you'll still need an attenuator to get good tube overdrive out of it. They get very loud.

As for channel switching, that's what compressor pedals, boost pedals, overdrive pedals, volume pedals and volume controls are for. A big part of the best rock and roll out there has been played on one-channel amps.

 

[tt0511]

I've been sitting here going through all the amp models in my Line 6 software.  Honestly, except for a couple of models I don't care for, they all sound great and have their place.  However, I think I really like the Matchless D-30 model in there.  Pristine cleans, awesome crunch, and with a tube screamer just downright nasty.  I saw that Matchless just developed a new amp, the Avalon 30.  It doesn't appear to be out on the market yet but I may need to seriously consider one of the Matchless amps.  Awesome versatility and superb tones.

 

[erogenousjones17]

I know that there's no possible way that anyone could ever need anything more than 30 watts of tube power at home.  Crap, I can never open up my amp at all!  It'll make your ears bleed in the house.  It rarely gets past 2.5 or 3 with the boost on.  

So true. My only "real" amp is a 50-watt Peavey toober, and when I play in my apartment it's just slightly above, you know, ON. I also use the gain boost at low volume, but don't need it when I turn it up a bit. But even when I play with my band I rarely get passed 4 or 4.5. Makes me think I have way more amp than I need, and that even though I love the way it sounds, maybe I'm missing out on something more by not being able to really crank it. I just can't bear to think of getting rid of this amp, because I love it.

I have been considering getting a small toob amp, however; namely the 5w Blackheart or an Orange Tiny Terror. Damn amplifiers. So much to consider, and so expensive to play around with!  :laughing7:

Dude, you need a Hot Plate or similar power attenuator.

Yes. Yes I do.