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Digital effects versus analog. I know, I know, ...huge debate here...

I've debated this with myself more than with anybody else.  Everyone does have their opinions  but I also have mine and I've found that I change my opinions more and more the more gear I play around with.

If we're talking tube vs. ss I've said it many times on here that I use both simultaneously.  My Rivera is very responsive to my playing just as Superlizard described, but even though it's Mick Thompson's amp of choice, It won't go anywhere near the levels of gain that my Crate can.  You play them together and it's the most amazing sound.

My beef with modelling is that it doesn't make much sense to me.  I have a boss pedal that does modelling. but using the marshall model through my rivera does not sound like a marshall.  and it sounds completely different going through my crate.  the only amp that the models sound like they're described in is the Jazz Chorus because that's boss's testing bed.  I'll use a model to help me get a sound I like. but I'm not going to use a Rectifier model to get a mesa sound.  If you get my meaning, because It doesn't work.

Analog vs. Digital...  I've found that the most digital distortion pedal sounds friggen awesome through my tube amp. but analog pedals sound crappy through my SS amp. go figure.

I don't think the digital conversion affects your tone enough to dismiss using it. especially because you can get your tone back using more digital processing.  My guitar goes through my GT-10 and does the AD/DA conversion once and upon exiting hits my Air FX and does it all over again.  But I haven't noticed any drop in quality since hooking up the Air FX.  I think that's mainly because both toys run at the same bit/sample rate.

i wanted to go more in depth here but i'm too distracted atm.  I'll be back later.
 
I will say that in my Flextone III amp with the stock speaker, though it is supposed to be voiced correctly according to Line 6, users all over forums everywhere disagree with Line 6 and change out the speakers.  I did the same and it most certainly did improve the amp's sound.  The general consensus for modeling amp users seems to be that you need a speaker and power source that is more along the lines of a non-coloring (if there even is such a thing) PA speaker.  The idea being that you need to avoid coloring the modeled tone in order to get the correct representation of the amp/cab modeled to begin with.

So, regarding the idea of running an amp modeler through another amp and expecting it to sound like the original Marshall / Soldano / Fender / whatever, isn't going to work exactly.  Running it through a PA will probably yield better results.

Regarding the idea of dynamics, I do have a Line 6 Toneport and unless my memory fails me the dynamics are certainly there if you are speaking of taking a modelled amp and being able to use your guitar's volume knob to change the sound from clean to grit to distortion.  Of course, this varies by amp model but when you dial back the volume knob on the guitar it does NOT simply lower the volume of the full out distorted tone.

Doesn't make modeling the same as a tube amp, but they've spent a lot of time now working out algorithms to model such behavior.  It would be unfair not to recognize that.  I think that early on, this hadn't been worked out though.

On another note, back to the original topic of this thread, I think I've made the decision (at least for now, lol) to stick with the pedal board idea and stomp boxes.  One thing I've found is that I like the idea of being able to change out a component.  Right now, my flanger just plain sucks! (It's an Ibanez CF7 which is both a chorus and a flanger.  Got it back years ago when I first picked up the guitar to play in a church)  But, I can get the flanger of my choice to replace it.  I can get the overdrive/distortion combo that I personally want.  There's some freedom and individuality to be had there.  You can do the same thing in a different way with a multi-effects pedal, or add pedals to it, but I think most people are probably right.  Do I "really" need to be able to make all those different sounds?  Probably not.  Probably a lot of the cool sounds are novelty sounds that I would find fun to play with for a few minutes but would never really use.

So, I may one day get a digital multi-FX pedal to play with, and I'm sure there are usable sounds to be had in there.  But for now I think I'm going to stick to the old school ways.  It didn't hurt any when I found a video on Joe Satriani's board filled with old school stuff.  His board looks complex at first, but it's really pretty simple.  I don't know why in the world he needs so many octave type tools though.  I think he has around 5 different boxes that do that.
 
Modelers are designed to sound the best right into the PA.  I've been pleased with a Vox Tonelab straight into a bose L1.  It has the dynamics and touch response...
... but then again it has a tube in it  :)
 
Well, I have:
early 70's 50-watt Marshall head
Mesa Boogie MkII
I gig with a Peavey Classic 30 head sometimes, because it's more versatile in the clean stretch and my tubes last longer... but I usually use a modeler into a mofo-big SS bass rig, a SWR SM-500 - it's like a PA amp, almost.

I've had the POD 2.0 and PODxt, but I sold them because after a few months tweaking, I just got better results from Digitech & Boss units. What do you spend you time doing? I spend most of my time practicing alone, and I simply don't care if a model is "right" - I just want it to sound good. I have to enjoy what I'm doing, and when I gig, I've never, ever had someone walk up and say, "You need a spring reverb..." The new Fractal-FX is out of my range, but I greatly admire them getting away from the Bassman/Twin/Mk II/Soldano/whatever labels - just make it sound good!

There are two specific areas in which I think modelers really, really shine - one is, they let you try any number of different combinations and order of effects, without crawling around on the floor, without buying three different phasers, flangers, OD's etc. What happens when you set a rotary model for 200ms, a delay for 300ms and a slow 600ms flange? I can tell you in 90 seconds... The other big point is that all the switching and routing is done internally, so instead of three or five little boxes all with their own amp, sequentially adding noise and changing tone, it's cleaner. Bottom line - I can get things happening with the modelers that simply never would happen without them. But I'm keeping my stompboxes too.... :toothy12:
 
Some FXs don't sound good pre-powert00b (before the amp); time-based FX especially.

This is how you do post-powert00b multi-FX live with a real t00b amp (wet/dry):

Slave.gif


If'n ya wanted, you could even have stereo "wet".
 
I don't know if this "exactly" applies because of the dynamics part of the discussion, but I'd be interested to know who can tell which of my songs guitar parts were done in the Line 6 Toneport and which parts were recorded from my mic'd Classic 30.  Excuse my writing.  I'm a newb.  I try hard, but I have a LOT to learn.

www.myspace.com/fizzmusik

Check out "Dawn" (my first full instrumental song attempt that gets a little monotonous) and "Breathe" (my latest endeavor).

Between those two songs it'd be interesting to know who thinks which guitar was recorded via what platform.  Actually, between any of the four songs posted there.  There's a good mix of usage between the four.  All in good sportsmanship.
 
I haven't used guitar rig and the modelled tones I've used are not near as good as a sweet tube amp, so I'm more in the old-school camp on this one. But in a live situation I doubt it matters all that much. I used my Boss ME-70 modeling through the PA for all of the rehearsals I did this summer, the other guys were using the peavey and carvin tube amps in the rehearsal room, mine sounded just as good. That is, it sounded as good as some cheap and probably not well-maintained tube amps. The carvin actually had an ok tone. However if I'm playing by myself the differences are pretty obvious.
 
Check out this review of the M13:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172431

I trust this guy's opinion. He makes his own pedals and I bought one of his excellent overdrives.
 
Wow.  I'm sure some will disagree with him, but perhaps it's at least worth checking out.  That's a nice review.
 
tt0511 said:
I don't know if this "exactly" applies because of the dynamics part of the discussion, but I'd be interested to know who can tell which of my songs guitar parts were done in the Line 6 Toneport and which parts were recorded from my mic'd Classic 30.  Excuse my writing.  I'm a newb.  I try hard, but I have a LOT to learn.

www.myspace.com/fizzmusik

Check out "Dawn" (my first full instrumental song attempt that gets a little monotonous) and "Breathe" (my latest endeavor).

Between those two songs it'd be interesting to know who thinks which guitar was recorded via what platform.  Actually, between any of the four songs posted there.  There's a good mix of usage between the four.  All in good sportsmanship.
Click to expand...

The mix sounds good (song-wise), but got any clips where the guitar tone isn't somewhat hidden by drums, bass, 'verb and other FX?

What you should do is play the same part, dry, sans any other instruments in the mix, and make a clip of each (modeler and classic 30).

EDIT:  or at least have the guitars stick out more in the mix solely for this purpose.
 
I'm a bit busy at the moment, got a lot going on, but I may try to find my tracks for those songs and either isolate the tracks or boost them in the mix.  This is all good for learning.  It may just be easier to record something via toneport and via classic 30 to try and compare what you're talking about.  Maybe I could find a bit of time over the weekend to give this a try.

Gotta love Lizzy btw.  The guitar tone in Jailbreak just kills me.
 
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
mayfly said:
+1 to the above.  The over arcing rule of tone is:  If it sounds good, USE IT.
Click to expand...

There's the rub.  What is good?
Click to expand...

Good is good to your ears.  Does anyone else really matter if it sounds good to you?
 
tt0511 said:
I'm a bit busy at the moment, got a lot going on, but I may try to find my tracks for those songs and either isolate the tracks or boost them in the mix.  This is all good for learning.  It may just be easier to record something via toneport and via classic 30 to try and compare what you're talking about.  Maybe I could find a bit of time over the weekend to give this a try.

Gotta love Lizzy btw.  The guitar tone in Jailbreak just kills me.
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in trying to determine which is which - I love a *good* "tone test"...   :icon_thumright:   I used to do them frequently; especially for comparing t00b brands (e.g. new vs. old).  People/manufacturers talk sh!t all the time and claim "x is better or just as good as y" or put forth generic "it's all good/everything is pretty much equal" disclaimers, but the truth is what you hear in an actual clip... because there are differences, and not everything is equal.

Yeah for Lizzy... I can get spot-on Jailbreak tone (live; haven't tried recorded comparison yet) with either of my t00b amps and the Crunch Box.
 
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