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720 mod and string stiff/looseness

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Cederick

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I understand the 720 mod affects playability on hardtails, with break angle and all.

But does it affect playability on Floyds?

I had this Squier/Kramer partscaster the other day that felt okay, but I wanted to try my favorite neck from my main Warmoth guitar, and holy shite did the strings become stiff! I had to raise the bridge almost 1cm to not have the strings resting on the frets. I didn't like the bridge height at all, and the playability went down the trashcan. At least for me. I like slinky strings!

So... Yeah. Does 720 mod affect Floyd playability, or only hardtails?

EDIT!!!!!! UPDATE!!!!!!

I made an experiment to ACTUALLY try this out, and the evidence is clear. What's beyond the nut and saddles is of no concern for feel of the strings. A reversed headstock does simply NOT feel different than a regular headstock. :hello2:

[youtube]pFQOJBVXXfk[/youtube]
 
I can't imagine the "720 mod" having any more effect on playability than the color of your strap buttons. So, implemented on a Floyd vs. a hardtail?  The mod won't make a difference, but you might be able to feel the difference between a bridge that gives vs. one that doesn't. Even that would be slight, and nowhere near as dramatic as changing scale length. Are you sure changing the neck didn't change the scale length?
 
Cagey said:
I can't imagine the "720 mod" having any more effect on playability than the color of your strap buttons. So, implemented on a Floyd vs. a hardtail?  The mod won't make a difference, but you might be able to feel the difference between a bridge that gives vs. one that doesn't. Even that would be slight, and nowhere near as dramatic as changing scale length. Are you sure changing the neck didn't change the scale length?

Actually I just figured it out myself:

720 with Floyd = no affect on string tension. The strings are locked at saddle. Not difference in string length.
720 with through-body hardtail = this does affect. Because the saddles will be lower, the string will not be as long as regular and therefor be slightly slinkier.

And yeah, both was 25.5" necks, the original was a Kramer. I only have 25.5" necks except the Fender HM Strat with 25"
 
Whether the strings are locked or not doesn't affect scale length, and neither does their height. The intonation has to be set correctly in any event, so the length of the string is the same in all cases. The speaking length of the string is what sets how stiff it feels, unless you have a bridge that gives. Hardtail bridges don't give because they're solidly mounted, but a vibrato bridge might give depending on how tight the counterbalancing springs are. So, given the same strings and scale length, a Floyd might feel slightly slinkier.
 
Cagey said:
Whether the strings are locked or not doesn't affect scale length, and neither does their height. The intonation has to be set correctly in any event, so the length of the string is the same in all cases. The speaking length of the string is what sets how stiff it feels, unless you have a bridge that gives. Hardtail bridges don't give because they're solidly mounted, but a vibrato bridge might give depending on how tight the counterbalancing springs are. So, given the same strings and scale length, a Floyd might feel slightly slinkier.

No, I'll show you here :)

(T = tuner, N = nut, B = bridge, S = stoptail)

T---N---------------B----S
T---N---------------B----------------------------S

Even tho both of these have the same scale length between nut and bridge, example #2 will have stiffer strings because the string is longer...

TxxxN----------------FR

On a Floyd Rose the string doesn't go anywhere past the bridge, and the strings between nut and tuners doesn't affect anything really

This is why I'm so confused in why the partscaster felt so different when going from almost straight neck to a new angled neck with the bridge much higher. It shouldn't do so much difference but it did
 
This thread doesn't make a lot of sense. On the one hand a post says the 720 mod makes the string feel stiffer and the conclusion is drawn that this is due to overall shorter string length then in a later post a diagram is made with the claim that when the overall string length is longer it will be stiffer. That's a contradiction.

With regard to scale length for a given gauge of string, scale length and pitch. The string must be at an equivalent tension between nut and bridge regardless of what's at either end of it to be at the same pitch. That's a physical fact.

Now how a string feels to one person or another there can be all sorts of variables and interpretations but that's opinion which may or may not have any basis in fact.
 
I'll do an experiment with different string lengths some day and come back with the results :)
 
You won't be the first to want to do that because the whole thing sounds counterintuitive. But, it's true.

To use your own diagram...

(T = tuner, N = nut, B = bridge, S = stoptail)

ex. 1) T---N---------------B----S

ex. 2) T---N---------------B----------------------------S

The speaking length of the string section NB is the same in both cases. So, for a given length of a given string gauge, they have to pulled to the same tension to get the same vibrating frequency. Since in either case we're talking about a single string, we can consider the sections TN, NB and BS to be a series circuit. The tension will be the same in all sections, as it is set by the overall tension between TS. So, the TN and BS sections can be any length you want. You still have to bring the overall tension TS to a certain point to get section NB to that point.
 
Sorry, Cagey, you were right all along.

Keep in mind, what I believed is not that uncommon;
http://www.strat-talk.com/threads/reason-for-reverse-headstock-other-than-looks.228195/
Look here. So many people talking about different feel in headstocks.

My experiment is EXTREME, which is part of the evidence; a regular headstock doesn't have THAT much longer string.

[youtube]pFQOJBVXXfk[/youtube]

Well, it's always fun to educate oneself. I really was so sure I was right, because it "feels right" in the mind, that a longer string behind nut would make the string stiffer. But it doesn't. Hail science!  :toothy12:
 
Well, good. Now that I've proved it logically and you've proved it physically, you will find that there are still people out there who will argue with you until they're blue in the face. It's dogma for many players so there's no changing their minds. But, as Stratamania said, it's just physics. You can't argue with it unless you want to ignore reality.
 
I remember having this argument with a certain forum member years ago.  I think at the time it was "wrapping the string over the top of the TOM tailpiece made the string slinkier". 

Never could educate that boy.
 
While it's not a perfect analogy, I can say that over the years I've spent thousands of dollars on books related to electrical engineering, computer languages and programming, quite often duplicating subjects. But, some people explain things better than others. A perfectly logical concept may escape you for a while, then some guy says things differently and you have an epiphany.
 
Cagey said:
Well, good. Now that I've proved it logically and you've proved it physically, you will find that there are still people out there who will argue with you until they're blue in the face. It's dogma for many players so there's no changing their minds. But, as Stratamania said, it's just physics. You can't argue with it unless you want to ignore reality.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up and I could finally actually test it, because I've been thinking about trying it out for a year or two, but I think I just needed some motivation, and now I got it. Thanks! :)

Actually, it's fun to be proven wrong, especially if you do it yourself. That means you actually learn something.
 
Bridges, neck angle and suchlike certainly don't affect the string tension when you're plucking a single string, but the break angle over the saddles and nut do affect tension to a minor degree.

The easy way to demonstrate this is to get a guitar with a tune-o-matic and stopbar bridge, do some string bending with the stopbar all the way to the body, then raise the stopbar high enough that the strings are coming across the tune-o-matic saddles almost completely straight, re-tune, and try bending again. The strings will feel significantly softer, and they likely won't ring out as long or as brightly.
People with 2015 or 2016 HP Gibson guitars, with the height-adjustable nut, can also easily test and see this same effect happening at the nut.

Essentially what you're doing is relieving downward pressure and tension across the saddle/nut, so although the break-to-break length hasn't changed, when you push/pull on the string a more significant amount, to bend it, the string isn't being tortured quite as much as when it's being bent over the saddle/nut at a more severe angle. Regular fretting doesn't bend the string much, so you continue to not notice a difference with plain notes.

Now, obviously, nobody plays with their stopbar set that high; at least I hope they don't. But it's something you can try for yourself to feel the effect of a lesser break angle. In the real world, where most people keep all their bridge parts locked down as much as possible, regardless of design, this doesn't really come into play, but it does prove the theory that a shallow angle results in less tension when bending.

To a far, far lesser extent, you should also be able to feel a slight difference between Telecasters and tune-o-matics when bending strings, too. (And assuming you're using guitars of the same scale length, and with the same strings tuned to the same pitch.) Nowhere near as much as with a fully raised stopbar, but when switching between the two, one immediately after the other, you should feel very slightly more resistance with the Tele. If you look closely at the angles the strings come over the saddles with both bridge designs, it becomes easy to see why: the average Tele has a much more severe break angle over the saddle than the average tune-o-matic.

Bear in mind, too, that thicker strings and longer scale lengths are less affected than lighter strings on shorter scale lengths. Hence people with baritone guitars with heavy strings tend to not notice much of a difference no matter what hey do to the set up or what bridge they have, while people with short scale guitars and light strings tend to be a lot more sensitive to the slightest change. This is one (of several) reason why Brian May refuses to have his frets and nut changed, or move to a less crude bridge design; the dude is rocking .009 and .008 strings on a 24" scale guitar, you couldn't raise one pickup 0.5mm without him feeling the change.


... Though as far as the 720 neck pocket goes, it's such a small change that there should be no difference in break angle over the saddles, and there's certainly no change at the nut, so you shouldn't notice a thing. Especially if you're sticking to commong scale lengths, string gauges and bridge designs and setting everything up in a normal way. the 720 pocket can look a bit nicer, with everything sitting that bit lower and more flush, but actually feeling the difference is like being the princess feeling a pea through a hundred mattresses.
 
What Ace, mentioned at length are some of those variables I referred to in my second sentence above. These are good points.

When bending how the string "feels" will alter depending what's beyond the nut and bridge. How high or low the action is or how much relief etc will all contribute to the feel of a guitar when playing.

If I bend on a Floyd equipped guitar set up to float that will be different than when bending on a hard tail all other things being equal.  What happens is when you bend on a hardtail it has more of an immediate feel. On a Floyd or othe trem you will have to push a little further to get the note to pitch because at the same time the Trem is dipping and trying to lower pitch.  This may give the impression that the Floyd gives the strings a different amount of tension but that's really an erroneous conclusion.

The tension is part of the formula, length of string, gauge and tension of the string will equal a given pitch.  Change one and the pitch changes.

But any of those other variables I do agree that certain things to do with feel will change. A high action will result in having to press a string a further distance to fret it which can present intonation problems also. That's not just a feel thing the string is having to be pressed too far resulting in too much tension and a sharp note, like over bending.  That's one of the reasons I like a low action because in addition to the feel I like good intonation.

I've noticed where a lot of these types of discussions come apart especially on the web is due to a definition of terms used. If someone says the tension changes but really means the feel has altered that can lead to a misuse of terminology with others accepting what was said as a "fact" and drawing further conclusions based on a datum that isn't accurate.

Of course if you use a different string gauge on a given guitar not only will the feel change but the tension of the string has to alter accordingly compared to a thicker or thinner string to achieve the same pitch for a given string length.  But feel changing does not always equal a change of tension as it does in this case.


 
There was a thread over on TDPRi that touched on this too.  But the discussion was more focused on "sustain".

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-technical/604650-sustain-string-body-energy-transfer.html#post6731870


Somebody posted a link to a book called "The Science of Musical Sound".  It's available on Amazon.
Great book, has all of this stuff about string length, tension, sustain etc..  described in terms of math.

http://www.amazon.com/Science-Musical-Sound-Robinson-Pierce/dp/0716760053

just sharing..
 
Cagey said:
You won't be the first to want to do that because the whole thing sounds counterintuitive. But, it's true.

To use your own diagram...

(T = tuner, N = nut, B = bridge, S = stoptail)

ex. 1) T---N---------------B----S

ex. 2) T---N---------------B----------------------------S

The speaking length of the string section NB is the same in both cases. So, for a given length of a given string gauge, they have to pulled to the same tension to get the same vibrating frequency. Since in either case we're talking about a single string, we can consider the sections TN, NB and BS to be a series circuit. The tension will be the same in all sections, as it is set by the overall tension between TS. So, the TN and BS sections can be any length you want. You still have to bring the overall tension TS to a certain point to get section NB to that point.
If you were only strumming, I would agree with you but.........What you are not taking into consideration is that with string bending in a non-locking trem scenario, the strings intonation/contact point slides to a certain degree then slides back into place.  This is what causes string breakages alot if the bridge or nut aren't smooth. The movement in the saddle causes the break.  So, while bending, the string is actually stretch beyond the intonation points in the non-locking and in a floyd, you are only able to stretch the shorted length of string
 
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